24p UHD Motion Issues - Panasonic 2019 OLEDs

I think there's confusion because my original post was in reply to a very specific question about OLED judder caused by sample-and-hold, compared to stutter, which was in this case an artefact of the TV randomly switching between two different pulldown methods.

I would classify both sample-and-hold motion and 3:2 pulldown motion as judder. It's a continuous and repetitive break in otherwise smooth motion.

Stutter is a non-continuous break in motion such as a repeated or skipped frame that occurs in non-repetitive way - ie a skipped frame that happens a couple of times during a scene.

That does appear to (mostly) agree with both the rtings and HDTVtest articles I linked to above. Rtings did use both judder and stutter when talking about the same thing, but mostly call it judder,
 
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I think there's confusion because my original post was in reply to a very specific question about OLED judder caused by sample-and-hold, compared to stutter, which was in this case an artefact of the TV randomly switching between two different pulldown methods.

I would classify both sample-and-hold motion and 3:2 pulldown motion as judder. It's a continuous and repetitive break in otherwise smooth motion.

Stutter is a non-continuous break in motion such as a repeated or skipped frame that occurs in non-repetitive way - ie a skipped frame that happens a couple of times during a scene.

That does appear to (mostly) agree with both the rtings and HDTVtest articles I linked to above. Rtings did use both judder and stutter when talking about the same thing, but mostly call it judder,
I’m still confused then.

When reading Rtings reviews I have always taken the stutter measurements they make as referring to the continuous breaks in motion caused by sample-and-hold - indeed they specifically show the measured frame hold times.

When they refer to judder, I always take it as referring to the ability of the TV to suppress frame skipping/repeating and other seemingly random or irregular motion faults.
 
When reading Rtings reviews I have always taken the stutter measurements they make as referring to the continuous breaks in motion caused by sample-and-hold - indeed they specifically show the measured frame hold times.

When they refer to judder, I always take it as referring to the ability of the TV to suppress frame skipping/repeating and other seemingly random or irregular motion faults.
Well, here's the Rtings article about 24P Judder that I posted earlier: Judder-Free 24p On TVs

If you read that, they're clearly using judder to describe the regular, cyclic hesitations in motion caused by 3:2 pulldown, which is exactly in line with my definition.

Their use of Stutter (eg in Stutter of TVs) is alien to me and it seems to me that they've hijacked a word that was already commonly used to mean one thing when discussing motion analysis and used it to define something completely different. From now on I'm going to call televisions wheelbarrows and hope that it catches on. :p

Seriously, call it what you want. I'll continue using the definitions the video industry has been using for decades. It doesn't really matter, the context is usually enough to enable us to work out which particular problem with our wheelbarrows we're talking about.
 
Well, here's the Rtings article about 24P Judder that I posted earlier: Judder-Free 24p On TVs

If you read that, they're clearly using judder to describe the regular, cyclic hesitations in motion caused by 3:2 pulldown, which is exactly in line with my definition.

Their use of Stutter (eg in Stutter of TVs) is alien to me and it seems to me that they've hijacked a word that was already commonly used to mean one thing when discussing motion analysis and used it to define something completely different. From now on I'm going to call televisions wheelbarrows and hope that it catches on. :p

Seriously, call it what you want. I'll continue using the definitions the video industry has been using for decades. It doesn't really matter, the context is usually enough to enable us to work out which particular problem with our wheelbarrows we're talking about.
You call judder regular, they actually call it irregular.


“Stutter on TVs influences how smooth motion appears on the screen. It is generally most visible in slow panning shots with low frame rate content such as movies and causes a regular pattern of jerkiness. This is different to judder, which is an irregular pattern of jerkiness caused by inconsistent frame cadence.”

I’m not saying you’re wrong and Rtings are right, but you must see where the confusion arises.
 
I’m not saying you’re wrong and Rtings are right, but you must see where the confusion arises.
Oh, absolutely. But I have no argument other than to re-iterate that the broadcast industry has been using different meanings for decades before Rtings was even set up.
 
So, to sum up:

- judder - any motion artefacts occurring regularly. This covers the irregular movement caused by 3-2 pull down (or any other mismatch source-target rate - exp. blindly broadcasting 24 fps material over PAL signal) and too harsh frame transition caused by panning shots to fast for frame-rate or to fast response time of the screen.
- stutter - any motion artefacts happening irregularly - such as dropped frames or frame hold that lasted too long.

??

“Stutter on TVs influences how smooth motion appears on the screen. It is generally most visible in slow panning shots with low frame rate content such as movies and causes a regular pattern of jerkiness. This is different to judder, which is an irregular pattern of jerkiness caused by inconsistent frame cadence.”

They are wrong here for sure - as motion issues caused by 3:2 pull down are very regular. Each second we have 12 frames that lasted too long and 12 frames that lasted too short...
 
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Don’t hold out any hope. Although the issue has improved year on year since the inception of the EZ, each model has had its issues which have remained pretty much unchanged as far as I can tell, having owned an EZ and an FZ. The EZ was unacceptable in my opinion, the FZ is tolerable, and I actually wouldn’t change my FZ now, I feel it’s as perfect as I need it to be.
 
Don’t hold out any hope. Although the issue has improved year on year since the inception of the EZ, each model has had its issues which have remained pretty much unchanged as far as I can tell, having owned an EZ and an FZ. The EZ was unacceptable in my opinion, the FZ is tolerable, and I actually wouldn’t change my FZ now, I feel it’s as perfect as I need it to be.
If i remember well, the FZ got also a new Firmware with improvements on the Motion. I hope to see an improvement on the GZ.
 
If i remember well, the FZ got also a new Firmware with improvements on the Motion. I hope to see an improvement on the GZ.
Fingers crossed for you.
 
Regarding stutter and skipped frames, I was one if those most vocal about the issue with the EZ952. I’ve also noticed it in my FZ but nowhere near as much, to the point where it doesn’t bother me. However I do notice the issue with the Apple TV 4K being unable to play back 24hz content correctly, And now I wonder if some of the skipped frames I saw on my EZ were actually the Apple TV.
 
However I do notice the issue with the Apple TV 4K being unable to play back 24hz content correctly...

Brand new GZ1000 owner here and I’m not having any issues of stutter/judder whatever people are generally complaining about. (I’m coming from a Vizio 4K LCD).

What are your video output settings from the Apple TV? By default it outputs a constant 4K 60Hz Dolby Vision signal regardless of the source material. However you can modify this in the video settings menu to output in the native format of the source material (24Hz, 30Hz, etc.). There is a slight delay when you press play on something as the TV adjusts to the new signal feed but then you can be sure the TV is handling all the signal processing vs the Apple TV taking 24fps content, converting it to 60Hz and then having the TV detect 3:2 pull down and then re-arranging the frames to display properly at 24fps.
 
Brand new GZ1000 owner here and I’m not having any issues of stutter/judder whatever people are generally complaining about. (I’m coming from a Vizio 4K LCD).

What are your video output settings from the Apple TV? By default it outputs a constant 4K 60Hz Dolby Vision signal regardless of the source material. However you can modify this in the video settings menu to output in the native format of the source material (24Hz, 30Hz, etc.). There is a slight delay when you press play on something as the TV adjusts to the new signal feed but then you can be sure the TV is handling all the signal processing vs the Apple TV taking 24fps content, converting it to 60Hz and then having the TV detect 3:2 pull down and then re-arranging the frames to display properly at 24fps.

ive got ‘Match frame rate’ turned on. It’s more the fact that the Apple TV can only playback 23.97 and not 24 hz, therefore there is a few skipped frames every 40 seconds or so. It’s well documented in the Apple TV thread. It’s rare because most content is 23.97hz and if it’s a Netflix programme I just watch it through the TVs app.
 
Fire TV Stick hasn't gone well with my Panny DX902. Loads of stutter and dropped frames no matter what I do. Thought it was my TV and only realised it was the Fire TV stick after watching the same content via built-in Apps.
 
I’ll save you time looking for the holy grail of settings, the OLED will never look as smooth as the plasma while not giving it that ‘soap opera effect’
Will just have to settle for a that will do setting unfortunately. Come from a GT50 to the gz950 here :)
 
I don't know if most people will have heard that the option for 120Hz black frame insertion (BFI) first teased for the 2019 OLED panels now seems confirmed for 2020?

There should be more about this coming out of CES next week, and it'll be interesting to see what in reality this means for motion cadence and motion resolution for OLED, particularly with 24fps material.

Desk
 
Are there any news on that issue? Frame Skipping is driving me crazy...really. With or without IFC it is still there.
 
I still see frameskipping on netflix with dolbyvision dark preset(with ifc off), not on the bright preset(with ifc off). Dolbyvision dark preset must have some ifc enabled(with netflix) even if it is off in the settings. It was really obvious with the Horse Girl movie. Every couple of minutes a frame skip in dolby vision dark(with ifc off)
 
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I still see frameskipping on netflix with dolbyvision dark preset(with ifc off), not on the bright preset(with ifc off). Dolbyvision dark preset must have some ifc enabled(with netflix) even if it is off in the settings. It was really obvious with the Horse Girl movie. Every couple of minutes a frame skip in dolby vision dark(with ifc off)
I tried all presets and i see the framskipping everywhere...seems a Panasonic problem.
 

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