24p UHD Motion Issues - Panasonic 2019 OLEDs

I just watched this sequence on Netflix. I can see what you mean but it really doesn't look that bad to me - any visual issues are probably caused by how the images were captured e.g. from an incredibly long-distance, image-stabilised camera no doubt. These are not perfect studio conditio

Thanks Steve :smashin:

As this thread develops, I'm getting to understand much more about what's going on with various motion issues. Particularly, that this particular BBC series appears to have been transferred to disc in a less than ideal manner.

I hope that this thread continues to develop so that we get further clarification on a range of motion issues and causes.
 
I was just going to’confuse’ things a little bit more ! I have a similar setup as the OP. Gz950, driven by Avrx4300h (same video conversion settings) & ub420.

With Avengers Infinity War, I was having a stutter (‘not’ judder) issue with Thor’s head when they initially go and find drunk Thor. I set 4k pure direct on & stutter was gone.

Another one is Fith Element, opening scene just after the credits as spaceship enters from the right. Major stutter on the spaceship. Setting pure direct on removed the stutter.

Ive tried various different settings in the regular mode with 4k material and seemed to have settled with pure direct. Obviously I’m going through the avr so something could be happening there, and I’m only talking 4k blu ray.

Question to the OP, have you tried changing the video mode in the avr to Game ? I’ve done this with the sky and my Apple TV going through the amp.
 
This is getting confusing - a previous poster (perhaps in another GZ thread) used these terms quite differently - judder to describe the consistent "jerkiness" in sideways pans on low-framerate content and stutter to describe the occasional frame-skipping/repeating that Panasonics apparently do.

In that terminology I have only seen judder, not stutter, on my TV. Neither terminology is necessarily right or wrong but it's certainly confusing when different terms are applied!

From your description and in your terminology, both "judder" and "stutter" might contribute to what the OP is seeing?
I only use judder to describe telecinic/3:2 pulldown judder. Stutter is another inherent downside to motion on oled , and just so you know, stuuter is present on all oleds, it's not something only that happens on panasonic, being a sony oled owner i know I can spot it in slow panning shots in movies. But with panasonic's processing/frame interpolation (aka IFC), this problem can get exaggerated. Stutter happens because of the very fast GtG pixel response time of oled panels . In low fps content this tends to cause a jerkiness effect in the picture, slow panning shots in and out or across the screen will show this problem the most. In Planet Earth II scenes when the camera slowly pans inwards, i can notice some stutter on my sony oled (even with sony's frame interpolation (aka motionflow) engaged. Stutter is not really an issue that is noticeable with higher frame rate content such as 50/60 fps or more, because the frames in such content blend into each other much faster. With 24/25/30 fps content is where it's a problem. And how much you notice it will also be down to your susceptibility to pick up motion artifacts. Not all people's eyes have the same kind of tolerance to motion artifacts.
 
I was just going to’confuse’ things a little bit more ! I have a similar setup as the OP. Gz950, driven by Avrx4300h (same video conversion settings) & ub420.

With Avengers Infinity War, I was having a stutter (‘not’ judder) issue with Thor’s head when they initially go and find drunk Thor. I set 4k pure direct on & stutter was gone.

Another one is Fith Element, opening scene just after the credits as spaceship enters from the right. Major stutter on the spaceship. Setting pure direct on removed the stutter.
Yes, both of these will remove the stutter because they leave the pictures effectively in 60P 3:2 pulldown mode, therefore the processing required to identify and remove the repeated frames in the 3:2 pulldown sequence is bypassed. It's this processing that causes the stutter when it changes between 60P and 24P modes based on being able to identify the repeated frames from motion within the picture - see my previous post #45.

When the EZ came out, it had horrific stutter on 50Hz sources, which could be completely eliminated by switching on Game Mode or Pure Direct. However, the downside was that in these modes it introduces 3:2 pulldown to 24P inputs, causing (to my mind) unacceptable pulldown judder on motion. Thankfully a firmware update solved the 50Hz issues.
 
I just watched this sequence on Netflix. I can see what you mean but it really doesn't look that bad to me - any visual issues are probably caused by how the images were captured e.g. from an incredibly long-distance, image-stabilised camera no doubt.
Netflix's version will be at 60fps, so you're not seeing it in the same way as the OP did, and it will look different. It's probably a completely different grading of the content infact, as it needs to fit into the bandwidth limitations Netflix has.

Paul
 
Netflix's version will be at 60fps, so you're not seeing it in the same way as the OP did, and it will look different. It's probably a completely different grading of the content infact, as it needs to fit into the bandwidth limitations Netflix has.

Won't it be 24fps on Netflix?

I think might be limitations (I wouldn't cause them issues) with the source material in some shots that could be apparent on all media.
 
I was just going to’confuse’ things a little bit more ! I have a similar setup as the OP. Gz950, driven by Avrx4300h (same video conversion settings) & ub420.

With Avengers Infinity War, I was having a stutter (‘not’ judder) issue with Thor’s head when they initially go and find drunk Thor. I set 4k pure direct on & stutter was gone.

Another one is Fith Element, opening scene just after the credits as spaceship enters from the right. Major stutter on the spaceship. Setting pure direct on removed the stutter.

Ive tried various different settings in the regular mode with 4k material and seemed to have settled with pure direct. Obviously I’m going through the avr so something could be happening there, and I’m only talking 4k blu ray.

Question to the OP, have you tried changing the video mode in the avr to Game ? I’ve done this with the sky and my Apple TV going through the amp.

Can you describe exactly what you mean by stutter in this context?

I found that 4K Pure Direct mode (and Game mode) introduced continuous judder on 24fps content, which I was told is caused by the TV converting to 60hz with 3:2 pulldown. Turning both these modes off gave me the smoothest motion I have yet seen on the TV. :)

I am not sure I have ever seen what people are referring to as "stutter" but it's all quite confusing.
 
Netflix seems to use 60fps on most TV apps, regardless of whether the content is a movie or show.

Paul

If that was the case, wouldn't motion on films and other 24fps content (presumably including Planet Earth II) look as bad as it always does when converted to 60hz? I was used to that effect when watching Netflix via the PS4 but have not seen it via the TV's app, it seems much smoother....
 
If that was the case, wouldn't motion on films and other 24fps content (presumably including Planet Earth II) look as bad as it always does when converted to 60hz? I was used to that effect when watching Netflix via the PS4 but have not seen it via the TV's app, it seems much smoother....
My understanding is as I wrote. You can always check for yourself by playing a movie through Netflix, and pressing the i button on the remote.

I'd suggest it's as with the 4K Pure Direct setting, there's more going on than meets the eye.

Paul
 
but the results are clear to see if you engage Game Mode or 4K Pure Direct. I guess that you have to convert to either 60Hz or 120Hz to apply the IFC processing if required and the simple fact is that you only need half the processing speed if you're doing it at 60Hz and the doubling up the resulting frames.
As an aside, I don't think the screen is always running at 120Hz though, as there's no integer multiple of 25Hz / 50Hz that gets to 120, so with 50Hz sources I suspect it's running at 100Hz.

Yes, both of these will remove the stutter because they leave the pictures effectively in 60P 3:2 pulldown mode, therefore the processing required to identify and remove the repeated frames in the 3:2 pulldown sequence is bypassed. It's this processing that causes the stutter when it changes between 60P and 24P modes based on being able to identify the repeated frames from motion within the picture - see my previous post #45.

Hi Steve, I was searching for your old posts yesterday but I see you have already clarified and confirmed what happens with Game Mode/Pure Direct ON with 24p contents and it's the same I was trying - without success - to explain here.
Maybe you are more convincing than me, you know, some folk have no respect for others… I will leave them to their sad attitude...... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Won't it be 24fps on Netflix?

Yes, of course. Panasonic oleds (EZ, FZ and GZ) provide a Netflix app able to handle 24p correctly. And this is quite easy to prove using "Panasonic TV Remote 2" app where you can check which type of signal is processed by the tv at any moment. 24p Netflix contents shows a regular 24Hz signal. Have a look at below screenshot taken while I was watching a movie on Netflix (1080i@24Hz):



When you go from a 24Hz movie to a 25Hz movie you can see "video signal analyzer" changes in realtime. FullHD movies on Netflix are mainly 1080i@24Hz or 1080i@25Hz.
 
Yes, of course. Panasonic oleds (EZ, FZ and GZ) provide a Netflix app able to handle 24p correctly. And this is quite easy to prove using "Panasonic TV Remote 2" app where you can check which type of signal is processed by the tv at any moment. 24p Netflix contents shows a regular 24Hz signal. Have a look at below screenshot taken while I was watching a movie on Netflix (1080i@24Hz):



When you go from a 24Hz movie to a 25Hz movie you can see "video signal analyzer" changes in realtime. FullHD movies on Netflix are mainly 1080i@24Hz or 1080i@25Hz.
Useful information and shows Panasonic have the enthusiast in mind, with their TVs.

ETA: It might be useful to post which movie it was you were watching, so other users can replicate and see for themselves.

Paul
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry but I don't remember exactly which movie was, I have tried many in order to be sure signal analyzer was updating info in real time.
 
I'm sorry but I don't remember exactly which movie was, I have tried many in order to be sure signal analyzer was updating info in real time.
I'll take a look tonight, as I have the app.

It's interesting that it's reporting the content as 1080i, as that's extremely unusual for any content, and streaming services typically stream content as progressive scanned, and at a minimum of 50i. 24i is essentially 12fps and would look very odd. I've seen errors with what the app reports on a previous TV, so I suspect it's erroneous.

The TV should also display what refresh rate is being used, for cross reference.

Paul
 
The TV should also display what refresh rate is being used, for cross reference.

The problem is that while tv apps are running, i.e. Netflix, the info button does not provide details about refresh. Unfortunately we can just trust in what signal analyzer is telling us. However, 24p contents on Netflix visually produce the exact same motion I see while watching at Blu-rays with that typical low frame rate stuttering. However, I was assuming Netflix was often working at 24Hz way before having it confirmed by Remote 2 app.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that while tv apps are running, i.e. Netflix, the info button does not provide details about refresh.
Good to know. I've not checked myself, but naturally assumed it behaved as it does with external inputs.

Paul
 
Hi Steve, I was searching for your old posts yesterday but I see you have already clarified and confirmed what happens with Game Mode/Pure Direct ON with 24p contents and it's the same I was trying - without success - to explain here.
Maybe you are more convincing than me, you know, some folk have no respect for others… I will leave them to their sad attitude...... :rolleyes:

Quick question back to you guys, what settings are you both using to what 4K Blu-rays motion wise ?
 
Question for owners of the GZ950

Will be watching 4k discs only so what is the motion like?

which movies have you noticed judder/stutter

I currently own a Panasonic VT55 Plasma which i consider perfect.
 
I have an fz802 so 2018 equiv of yours your going the right way tbh it depends on each panel mid works fine for me does introduce occasional frame skip but this is negligible you could go to custom and keep your settings to if min isn't sufficient but 24p is meant to have some natural judder as that's how it was filmed
 
Quick question back to you guys, what settings are you both using to what 4K Blu-rays motion wise ?
I'm actually on an EZ rather than an FZ, but I have no motion processing turned on at all. If I have even one point of custom IFC turned on, I can see it and it makes the motion look artificial to me.
 
I'm actually on an EZ rather than an FZ, but I have no motion processing turned on at all. If I have even one point of custom IFC turned on, I can see it and it makes the motion look artificial to me.
Steve, thanks so much for the reply. I feel ‘exactly’ the same as you & ‘any’ form of ifc turned on & I can see it & it annoys me.

I’ve literally had the tv about a month & it was directly swapped from a pioneer Kuro, no other components changed. I wonder what’s going on then, asI put pure direct on as it made the motion on movies exactly as I had been watching on the pioneer.

you’ve made a reference to the Panasonic remote tv 2 app, I’ve downloaded that, can you tell me how I get to the screen that you have posted ?
Many than for your help
 
you’ve made a reference to the Panasonic remote tv 2 app, I’ve downloaded that, can you tell me how I get to the screen that you have posted ?
Well, it wasn't me that posted it, but from memory you go to Calibration and then swipe to the page on the left of the one you land on.
 
Yeah you need to change into "Full mode", then Click "Smart calibration", then go left 1 page. I don't think it works when DV is being displayed.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom