Question Adding A Multi Channel Power Amp to x4500h

Jester1066

Active Member
Hi all....

Appreciate people's views/thoughts on this.

I currently have the following Home Theatre setup - currently running in a 5.1.2 Atmos/height setup - Dali sitting on front speakers - although I have the additional (rear) atmos/height speakers to go to 5.1.4 (once I've decorated!). These will all be mounted as heights post decoration.

Denon x4500H
Audiolab 6000a used in HT- Bypass for stereo listening

Speakers:
Monitor Audio Bronze 5's, Centre and fX
Dali Alteco C1 x 4 (atmos)
BK P12-300SB-PR subwoofer

Am mega pleased with this setup - Everything bar the MA speakers is less than 6 months old. Even the MA's are under 2 years old!

Was wondering if there would be any noticeable benefit in adding an additional power amp (Emotiva A5175) to power for example the cente channel and 4 Dali's? Or would I be wasting my money?

I could also bi-amp the fronts with the pre-out on the 6000a, the use the other 3 channels for centre and the FX's - Although general consensus on here is bi-amping isn't worth it!

FWIW - my room is relatively small 15ft long 10ft wide approximately.

Any alternative - multi-channel - recommendations to the Emotiva Amp mentioned. Budget is around £1000?

Thanks
 

Jester1066

Active Member
How loud you typically listen? What is the Denons master volume at? Example -20.
Hi thanks for the reply. I generally listen @ around -25 to -15 master vol level - allowing for variation in broadcast TV channel sound levels, so your -20 example would be my average volume setting.

I have attached some pictures showing current speaker levels and crossovers - as set by audessey.

Note: Inhave changed the audessey set crossover, so that all speakers are @ 80hz. Also all speakers are set to small as audessey set the fronts to large. (Apologies for the reflection of my neice in the photo's!) 😉😂
 

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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi thanks for the reply. I generally listen @ around -25 to -15 master vol level - allowing for variation in broadcast TV channel sound levels, so your -20 example would be my average volume setting
Considering the Bronzes are rather easy load for receiver with 90db sensitivity and impedance mostly staying closer to the nominal 8ohm plus you have the Audiolab and subwoofer taking some load off aswell with those SPL levels i wouldn´t bother. You should be using ~80hz crossover settings with the front three, surrounds 80-100hz, Alteco 120-150hz. Speaker size set to Small all. Eco mode Off and impedance switch at 8ohm.

You could also consider learning to use the Audussey App and make the system sound even better, if you haven´t yet. Also another subwoofer could be something to consider if you feel you don´t have the most even room response. That is assuming there is few optimal positions for the second one.



Here is part from Dennis Burger`s X4500H review, you should be able to read between lines that it`s fully capable to play even louder volumes when you add couple speakers more.

For a real-world understanding of how much amplification the X4500H delivers, take this into consideration: it's enough to push a full Atmos speaker system to roughly reference listening levels in my 13- by 15- by 8-foot secondary home theater system without too much stress or strain.

Even when I drove the system to peaks of 99dB or thereabouts, dialogue remained wholly discernible. And this was frankly pretty close to the receiver's output limits (in, again, a 1,560 cubic-foot room with 87dB sensitive speakers about seven feet away; in smaller rooms or with more sensitive speakers, you'll likely be able to play it louder with no problem).
 

Jester1066

Active Member
Considering the Bronzes are rather easy load for receiver with 90db sensitivity and impedance mostly staying closer to the nominal 8ohm plus you have the Audiolab and subwoofer taking some load off aswell with those SPL levels i wouldn´t bother.
This was my initial thought - I'd be wasting my money.

You should be using ~80hz crossover settings with the front three, surrounds 80-100hz, Alteco 120-150hz. Speaker size set to Small all. Eco mode Off and impedance switch at 8ohm.
I have adjusted them as per your recommendation above. Have never used Eco mode.

You could also consider learning to use the Audussey App and make the system sound even better, if you haven´t yet. Also another subwoofer could be something to consider if you feel you don´t have the most even room response. That is assuming there is few optimal positions for the second one.
No room for 2nd subwoofer - Although I would love one!. I have looked at the audessey app, but wouldn't know where to start when using it etc. 😂 Can you recommend any good tutorials for a new user etc?

One other question:

On some channels/films my centre channel/dialogue is very quiet and often drowned by the effects (music, explosions etc). I have tried increasing centre level which helps. I have included a picture showing centre speaker placement. Unfortunately I cannot put the speaker under the TV as:

1. It's too tall - would block bottom of TV picture.
2. I have 2 children under 5 and the would be constantly fiddling with the speaker!

Any tips on improving dialogue levels short of what I've done already? I have extensively searched this forum and others for tips etc. - including dynamic volume - which I don't like using tbh

Is there a "better" centre channel speaker that would work with the bronze 5's tonally etc? Would something like the new bronze 6g centre for example provide better dialogue? Its's this minor dialogue issue that prompted my power amp theory as some have found it helps having the centre channrl on its own amp.

Thanks for all your help so far!
 

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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Bump up the center to 80hz aswell (60hz too low) if you didn´t yet and for surrounds (Bronze FX) 90hz is fine what you had before so lower that from 150hz. I meant for the Dolby Atmos speakers 120-150hz if you have them as upfiring "bounce from ceiling".

As for the dialogue issue you should angle the center speaker shooting downward toward listeners as you have it so high! Use rubber door stoppers at the back of speakers at each side, find big ones so it tilts more. I had the same speaker, there is nothing wrong with it just poor placement as people often have to do compromises which is understandable. There is floor tv stands if you search in Amazon. It will raise your tv and go behind your cabinet and under so the speaker would fit lower on top of your cabinet, but i understand you don´t want to take risk with kids even if you keep the front mask on. Although i would imagine the kids would go touching the main speakers aswell as the drivers are just in correct height.😱

Listen the system after making the adjustments in the crossovers and speaker size! Plus tilt the speaker like below.

 

Jester1066

Active Member
Sorry should of been clearer on the frequencies. They are as follows:

Front = 80Hz
Centre = 80Hz
Surround = 90Hz
Front Dolby = 150Hz - (upfiring)

Will definitely buy some doorstops - where did you get yours out of interest - and angle my Centre as per your pic. Have to say, I'm pleased there is nothing wrong with the speaker either quality or on a technical level.

Strangely the kids don't actually fiddle with the bronze 5's 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️... But they do sit on the tv cabinet and poke the TV!! On this basis I figure they'd therefore poke the speaker if it were below the tv.... but haven't actually tested the theory!

I got the tv cabinet so I could lock the avr/amps etc behind glass to stop little fingers!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
That`s not from my system, it`s from another forum. :) But something like this should do the trick. These look to have nice angle and are made of rubber, not plastic.

I can´t say how much it will make difference, but angling of speaker often helps. If you still feel it´s not good enough then you need to figure out how you get the center channel closer to seated ear height.

Oh one thing though. You have the Reference EQ curve on Denon now, there is also "Flat" which you could try. The Reference has some slight roll off at high frequencies so you might feel the second one sounds better who knows. Try it out! It`s under settings -> audio -> Audussey and there Mult EQ XT32. Reference is default.

As we got speaking of settings make sure you have the following behind BK sub:

- Phase 0
- Filter OUT/LFE
- Frequency knob to Max 120hz
 

Jester1066

Active Member
That`s not from my system, it`s from another forum. :) But something like this should do the trick. These look to have nice angle and are made of rubber, not plastic.

I can´t say how much it will make difference, but angling of speaker often helps. If you still feel it´s not good enough then you need to figure out how you get the center channel closer to seated ear height.

Oh one thing though. You have the Reference EQ curve on Denon now, there is also "Flat" which you could try. The Reference has some slight roll off at high frequencies so you might feel the second one sounds better who knows. Try it out! It`s under settings -> audio -> Audussey and there Mult EQ XT32. Reference is default.

As we got speaking of settings make sure you have the following behind BK sub:

- Phase 0
- Filter OUT/LFE
- Frequency knob to Max 120hz
Cool thanks for the link.... for around £3 I'll definitely give the wedges a go! One other note. The centre sits on a glass shelf. I am using the supplied rubber feet to isolate it. Would something like this: improve any possible vibration issues (while also tilting it down):


As the kids get older I will hopefully be able to move the centre speaker to below the tv/better position! 🤞😂... It's not terrible per say, but I "know" it's not right and that bugs me a tad! 😂

Re sub. I have the settings as you suggested. It's definitely the best sub £500 I've spent - was using a MA W10 before - massive difference 👌👍... Re-purposed the w10 for a stereo setup in the bedroom too!

I've tried the flat EQ - will probably get the Audessey EQ App, but need to find some tutorials first!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Cool thanks for the link.... for around £3 I'll definitely give the wedges a go! One other note. The centre sits on a glass shelf. I am using the supplied rubber feet to isolate it. Would something like this: improve any possible vibration issues (while also tilting it down):


As the kids get older I will hopefully be able to move the centre speaker to below the tv/better position! 🤞😂... It's not terrible per say, but I "know" it's not right and that bugs me a tad! 😂

Re sub. I have the settings as you suggested. It's definitely the best sub £500 I've spent - was using a MA W10 before - massive difference 👌👍... Re-purposed the w10 for a stereo setup in the bedroom too!

I've tried the flat EQ - will probably get the Audessey EQ App, but need to find some tutorials first!
I wouldn´t raise it any extra. Just try the wedges.

Nice to hear you happy with the sub! Money well spent.

Here is big thread about the App where you can get help.
 

Jester1066

Active Member
I wouldn´t raise it any extra. Just try the wedges.

Nice to hear you happy with the sub! Money well spent.

Here is big thread about the App where you can get help.
You're help is much appreciated 👍

Will post back with my "wedge results", and looks like I got some reading to dovre Audessey 😁
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Any way you can get the TV/Front LCR out of the corner - that is gong to be far more of an upgrade than an additional power amp!

Joe

PS And agree with Gasp3621 on adjusting the angle of the Centre speaker (personally I would try the system without it!).
 

Jester1066

Active Member
Any way you can get the TV/Front LCR out of the corner - that is gong to be far more of an upgrade than an additional power amp!

Joe

PS And agree with Gasp3621 on adjusting the angle of the Centre speaker (personally I would try the system without it!).
Hi thanks I can move the tv slightly to more centre of the wall but not much as I have a sofa on the adjacent wall - which would make the TV very close to that seating position (see pic). I will pull the front speakers forward to the edge of the tv cabinet. Problem is 2x kids both under 4 have lots of toys etc! 😂😉

The other sofa (my mlp) is on the wall opposite the tv. If I put the TV etc on this wall I cannot fit the mlp sofa where the tv currently is, as it hits the edge of the 2nd sofa! And would be very cosy!

I have the wedges on order!
 

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