ALM V BLM

Perhaps not in the legal sense of the term. But come on what would anyone expect when you do something like what that police officer did. If I recall it correct he was being made aware by his victim and still continued. Legally maybe it won’t be classed as murder but to me the continued use of such force is not an accident. He should have stopped and helped, as should his colleagues.
I give you rodney king - watch the video and remember NOT GUILTY was the verdict.

Trials and juries can be rigged in the USA and they vote on racial lines in these counties, so expect the trial to be held in a white county with a white jury.
 
Its the proportion that is uniquely alarming about black on black crime in America. 13% population. 52% of the murders. 93% of those black on black.
There are other proportions that are equally as alarming.

2016 statistics and numbers :
Black American men account for roughly 6.5% of the American population & they make up roughly 40.2% of Americas prison population.

I believe your interested in American politics, and race is as you say a big part of that.
Some race history right up to 2016.
 
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On this thread? Or in the real world?

Both. I know you have yourself distinguished between the movement and organisation, but others are not.

But you didn't post a tweet containing hate fuelled bile. You posted the one where he said BLM is an organisation that hates America. And it is. Too many well meaning or easily duped people are getting on board the BLM bandwagon rather than listening to the right people. Some are even being bullied onto it.

No it's not. BLM is a movement not concerned with "hating America". You're conflating the movement with the organisation and those within that do want to promote Marxist principles. The organisation came after. The tweet wasn't taking aim at the organisation either, it was taking aim at the movement and anyone who supports it. No-one should be duped by Guiliani. It's very clear he was stoking division with that tweet, the same as his President does.

I suspect many are the same as me, supportive of the movement but not buying into any Marxist ideology.

I dont see how. BLM does not represent 'blacks'. It represents its own agenda.

Again the organisation. The movement does represent blacks.

Is it though? What is it actually fighting for? What is the social change they are after?

Is it justice for George Floyd? He's already getting it.

Is it Police reform? Ok, what are their strategies for that? Does anyone know? Which police institutions are BLM conversing with? What data are they using? Are their ideas workable?

Is it the total eradication of racism? That's impossible, it would be undesirable to even try.

Is it just to fight racism in general? Yeah great. But who doesn't do that? Every institution is already committed to that, and I cant think of a single one that doesn't (except perhaps the KKK).

Floyd hasn't got justice yet. No guarantee that he's going to.

I think we've covered the police reform aspect before, they want money diverted to community projects and more say in policing policy. As an example. I'm sure there's more.

(Worth noting at this point that "defunding the police" was immediately jumped on by those opposed, and saying that the idea was to get rid of the police altogether. Not the case).

I very much doubt anyone is engaging with them or willing to engage at this point at a political level, although I admit I'm not certain where they stand here.

Racism will not be eradicated, but people will still try. Nothing wrong with that. Aside from the KKK, you forgot the biggest institution of all - Trump's government. It's doing and has done nothing to fight racism. You could aim that at previous administrations as well, but for sure this current one has in no way committed to improving relations in any form, it has in fact sought instead to inflame them on a regular basis. As it will continue to as the election approaches. You'll see I'm sure. I fully expect BLM to get involved in the election as well.

Speaking of which Trump has this election to win and he needs his support base believing he has no time for the likes of BLM. Why do you think he's so keen to label them all enemies of the state? Deem anyone or anything on the left a terrorist organisation? That's exactly what Guiliani was getting at as well.

I've seen that same language used to describe foreign terrorists. Hating America and it's values. It's not a coincidence.

That language does not heal. It's only purpose is to divide.
 
BLM is a movement not concerned with "hating America". You're conflating the movement with the organisation and those within that do want to promote Marxist principles.

How do you define the movement, if it's not the organisation? What form does the 'movement' take? Does it have goals separate from BLM, and where are they defined? How can I agree with or defend something when I dont know what it is?


Floyd hasn't got justice yet. No guarantee that he's going to.

Isn't it better to wait and see? There is zero indication that Chauvin is going to get anything less than a murder conviction. If he gets a slap on the wrist (which he wont), riot then.


Racism will not be eradicated, but people will still try. Nothing wrong with that.

Up to a point. But we are beginning to see a witch hunt; an endless quest to unearth racism in every crevice that wont end well. Coleman Hughes has a brilliant analogy for the argument for minimisation, as opposed to eradication. 10:15 (should watch the whole thing though).



Seriously, drink in all you can of this man (as well as his peers/inspirations).

That language does not heal. It's only purpose is to divide.

I'm curious at this point who's purpose it is to 'unite'. You say the right isn't doing it, but the left certainly aren't either. In fact the era of identity politics is the most divisive time I've known in my 47 years.

The only thing that's truly unifying is conversation; finding common ground. Disregarding opinions and cancelling people runs contrary to that.[/QUOTE]
 
You say the right isn't doing it, but the left certainly aren't either.
I think the American right tends to downplay racism. Of course the extreme far right are all in favour, but the average moderate conservative I think buries their head a little and likes to think that racism is long gone.

The American left on the other hand do the opposite and paint the picture of America now, as no different than America in the 50s which is just as nonsensical than claiming that racism is gone.

The problem with the left in the States is that they are becoming increasingly radical and the moderates are failing to keep it in check. The current explosion of cancel culture and other hard left extremism is an absolute gift for Trump.
 
That's my point too - there's an active conflating of the movement and the organisation in this thread. In addition, looking at their Twitter account, it's also understandable to see the UK version of the organisation as considerably more radical than its US counterpart. But these issues shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the entire movement, IMO.
Who is trying to beat the movement?

I'm pretty sure that every critic of BLM here has made that distinction clear.
How do you define the movement, if it's not the organisation? What form does the 'movement' take? Does it have goals separate from BLM, and where are they defined? How can I agree with or defend something when I dont know what it is?

This is what I was talking about a few days ago. Lucas, you liked Dr Phil's earlier post above - which implied that you supported the movement. So that's not the case then?
 
This is what I was talking about a few days ago. Lucas, you liked Dr Phil's earlier post above - which implied that you supported the movement. So that's not the case then?

Yes I think definitions are getting conflated all round, i'm as guilty as anyone.

To clarify, I support the statement 'Black Lives Matter'. I also think I get the context (Black Lives Matter too) in response to the perception of police brutality unfairly targeted towards the black community. If such targeting is racist in nature, then I wholeheartedly oppose it.

However any activism that manifests based on that statement needs to have a goal, and that goal needs to be defined. If we cant rely on the official 'organisation' BLM, then what is the movement? Also, there should be clear evidence that police brutality against black people has a basis in systemic racism, and isn't just a product of black over-representation in crime (or other factors). That evidence, as far as I can see, isn't entirely clear.

Hell, even the Floyd case doesn't explicitly prove racism as a motive.
 
How do you define the movement, if it's not the organisation? What form does the 'movement' take? Does it have goals separate from BLM, and where are they defined? How can I agree with or defend something when I dont know what it is?
I think the most important thing is black people appear to be able to differentiate between BLM the organisation and BLM the movement. There were some black street artists on C4 news last night and some of them were saying they demonstrated and went on marches but had reservations about BLM the organisation. This indicates there's a spectrum of opinion amongst black people and you should know because you keep posting videos of a black right wing commentator.;)
 
I think the most important thing is black people appear to be able to differentiate between BLM the organisation and BLM the movement. There were some black street artists on C4 news last night and some of them were saying they demonstrated and went on marches but had reservations about BLM the organisation. This indicates there's a spectrum of opinion amongst black people and you should know because you keep posting videos of a black right wing commentator.;)

I appreciate you were joking, but Coleman Hughes is absolutely not a right wing commentator. He's even said he's voting for Biden! (and I can imagine even some left wingers might be thinking twice about that:)).
 
There were some black street artists on C4 news last night and some of them were saying they demonstrated and went on marches but had reservations about BLM the organisation.
I think that is something that has been gradually increasing.

Both in terms of black people distancing themselves from the organisation, and white people being prepared to speak their mind.

A month ago those street artists may well have been less likely to voice their reservations for fear of backlash.

And to be honest, I think that the more the wider anti-racism movement distances itself from BLM the better.

I'm actually confused now. For whatever reason I thought that the #blacklivesmatter tag had been around for years and then the BLM organisation formed in the wake of Trayvon Martin's death and took on the tag that had already been a movement. But Google tells me that the organisation was formed then, and the #/slogan at the same time.

So at what point did BLM manage to become the name of the global anti-racist movement rather than just one organisation?
 
I think that is something that has been gradually increasing.

Both in terms of black people distancing themselves from the organisation, and white people being prepared to speak their mind.

A month ago those street artists may well have been less likely to voice their reservations for fear of backlash.

And to be honest, I think that the more the wider anti-racism movement distances itself from BLM the better.
It's the same as middle class people supporting Extinction Agenda, going on demos and protests etc without realizing EA want us to return to some sort of agrarian society and everyone will have to get rid of their cars, stop flying, grow their own hemp and sew their own clothes.


I'm actually confused now. For whatever reason I thought that the #blacklivesmatter tag had been around for years and then the BLM organisation formed in the wake of Trayvon Martin's death and took on the tag that had already been a movement. But Google tells me that the organisation was formed then, and the #/slogan at the same time.

So at what point did BLM manage to become the name of the global anti-racist movement rather than just one organisation?
That's right the hashtag and movement came about at the same time.
 
That's right the hashtag and movement came about at the same time.
So there is no such thing as the organisation and the movement being separate essentially.

But those within the broader anti-racism movement really need to separate themselves from BLM.

And the likes of Sky Sports and the Premier League need to quit plastering BLM everywhere. There was already an anti-racism group in football - Kick it Out.

They never received the support that BLM has.
 
I appreciate you were joking, but Coleman Hughes is absolutely not a right wing commentator. He's even said he's voting for Biden! (and I can imagine even some left wingers might be thinking twice about that:)).

Oh he's definitely on the conservative side, I would have thought that was obvious. He's soft right, but definitely right. American politics as a whole really isn't that left, TBH, particularly if you compare it to the Labour party here. That may change in the future, but it won't under Biden.

And quite a few Republicans have come forward as supporting Biden, that's the point of the Lincoln Project.
 
The point of the Lincoln project seems to be to keep the war machine moving along. Not bringing back troops from Afghanistan which Trump is trying to do.
 
Oh he's definitely on the conservative side, I would have thought that was obvious. He's soft right, but definitely right. American politics as a whole really isn't that left, TBH, particularly if you compare it to the Labour party here. That may change in the future, but it won't under Biden.

And quite a few Republicans have come forward as supporting Biden, that's the point of the Lincoln Project.

Yeah centre right is probably the most accurate; the 'right' part would be his belief in personal responsibility and scepticism towards welfare dependency. But I wouldn't pigeon hole him. He takes care to distance himself from the 'Candace Owens' types further to the right; he actually made a video critical of her. I like to think he occupies a common sense middle ground. The important thing I think is his commitment to evidence based, rather than emotional, arguments. He's an incredibly bright young man.

Worth noting some of his peers and inspirations; Thomas Sowell; Shelby Steele; John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Jason Riley, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I've been listening to their insights and its very eye opening.

Of course, we all like linking to people we agree with (guilty). However it does strike me that the voices above form a necessary counterpoint to what most people think are the prevailing attitudes of black Americans. Like captainarchive said, there's a spectrum of thought.
 
BLM have made things worse over the past two months imo. Not between black and white people but between the BLM and white people.

I think most people didn't bat an eye lid to them but recently with them bringing chaos to the streets with their protests and rioting at a time when only a month earlier people who travelled to seasides were dragged across coals (rightly so). Statues being toppled and antifa running amok makes it pretty hard to support there organisation.

I know people will say the rioting and toppling of Statues and Antifa has nothing to do with the core BLM movement but it goes hand in hand with them. I fully expect other large BLM marches in the future we will see more statues/ toppled and defaced.

I can get behind with them wanting to highlight prejudice and rascim against black people but not the rest.
 
I know people will say the rioting and toppling of Statues and Antifa has nothing to do with the core BLM movement but it goes hand in hand with them.
Age Concern were one of the main opponents of The Community Charge and many elderly people demonstrated against it's introduction. Do they go hand in hand with The Poll Tax Riots?
 
^^^^Much of this is nonsense Marv and one of the reason's why sadly it's seemingly becoming increasingly more pointless to have a conversation on this.

I'd disagree that BLM have made things worse. If anything it's highlighted a lot for me, and very much drawn my attention to the movement. As I'm sure it has for many white people now. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing what we've seen on television and around the world. This is a positive thing and not to be confused with supporting Marxism or wanting to bring down governments.

How many times this next point needs to be said is now getting ridiculous. BLM did not bring chaos to the streets, much of the protesting was peaceful and on point. Antifa were not "running amok", this is all right wing bullshit spouted by the likes of Candace Owens. Right wing elements in fact infiltrated the protesting where they could in order to breed the disorder.

BLM were not endorsing the downing of statues and Antifa do not go "hand in hand" with BLM. Otherwise does that automatically make me an Antifa supporter?

Are people really also not aware that protests have still been happening every day? In peace and without statues being torn down or defaced.

Zoning out of this conversation for the weekend anyway. It grates more than it should.
 
@richp007 i agree with you an extent. BLM cannot be held responsible for the rioting and looting. They didn't organise it, and they didn't encourage it.

However their vocal and aggressive call for revolt does nothing to discourage it.

Despite George Floyd's own family speaking to crowds begging them to stop looting and causing carnage, BLM leaders continued with comments like "if we don't get what we want, we will burn the system down".

I often see comments about Trump encouraging white supremacists. Not by openly stating it, but by comments that are seen as "dog whistling" to the rotten elements of the far right.

I don't think you can level that accusation at Trump, without acknowledging that the leaders of the BLM organisation have sometimes behaved in a similar manner with regards to the riots in the US.
 
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@richp007 i agree with you an extent. BLM cannot be held responsible for the rioting and looting. They didn't organise it, and they didn't encourage it.

However their vocal and aggressive call for revolt does nothing to discourage it.

Despite George Floyd's own family speaking to crowds begging them to stop looting and causing carnage, BLM leaders continued with comments like "if we don't get what we want, we will burn the system down".

I often see comments about Trump encouraging white supremacists. Not by openly stating it, but by comments that are seen as "dog whistling" to the rotten elements of the far right.

I don't think you can level that accusation at Trump, without acknowledging that the leaders of the BLM organisation have sometimes behaved in a similar manner with regards to the riots in the US.

Do you have examples? I as genuinely don't recall the, "if we don't get what we want, we will burn the system down." I saw similar sentiment from left wing nutters on social media, but from the actual BLM leaders? Even the organisation leaders? That would be admittedly be very disappointing, but then for you not unexpected of the organisation I imagine.

I'd have to acknowledge it though of course if true.

I did actually attempt to have a delve over dinner at the history of the movement, but it is not easy to navigate I am happy to admit. A lot of confliction as well; not easy to establish exactly where the movement exists and the organisation originates. I don't mind saying I gave up and switched back to film news :laugh: Far less of a headache!
 
Do you have examples? I as genuinely don't recall the, "if we don't get what we want, we will burn the system down." I saw similar sentiment from left wing nutters on social media, but from the actual BLM leaders? Even the organisation leaders?

BLM NYC leader said:
If this country doesn’t give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It’s a matter of interpretation.


Not only talks about burning down the system, but hints that he may mean literally.
 

Not only talks about burning down the system, but hints that he may mean literally.

But a swift bit of further research into that will tell you that his words were very quick (same day) to be condemned by BLM - even the organisation.

"Hawk Newsome has no relation to the Black Lives Matter Global Network (“BLM”) founded by Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi — and is not the “president” of BLM or any of its chapters. As BLM has told Mr. Newsome in the past, and as is still true today, Mr. Newsome’s group is not a chapter of BLM and has not entered into any agreement with BLM agreeing to adhere to BLM’s core principles. The only official chapter of BLM in New York is Black Lives Matter NYC."

So you're falling into the usual trap with this - and as a side note guess who couldn't wait to tweet Newsome's words to his masses?

Yep you guessed it.
 
BLM have made things worse over the past two months imo. Not between black and white people but between the BLM and white people.

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I think most people didn't bat an eye lid to them but recently with them bringing chaos to the streets with their protests and rioting at a time when only a month earlier people who travelled to seasides were dragged across coals (rightly so). Statues being toppled and antifa running amok makes it pretty hard to support there organisation.

I know people will say the rioting and toppling of Statues and Antifa has nothing to do with the core BLM movement but it goes hand in hand with them. I fully expect other large BLM marches in the future we will see more statues/ toppled and defaced.

I can get behind with them wanting to highlight prejudice and rascim against black people but not the rest.

BLM at its core was/is to stop police brutality against minority groups in the US . You only dwell on riots and looting but then only choose see a far left loose orginisation exploiting and manipulating the protests. Do you then dismiss the far right groups that only come out to raise hell at BLM protests ? Do you dismiss the countless peaceful protests around the world for the BLM movement ? Its one very blinkers on approach to why these movements start and need a voice .

Anyway it seems that the BLM movement is actually making ground in the US for change in redirecting police funding . One of the core goals .

 
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