ALM V BLM

If you read my earlier posts on this thread you will see where I am coming from on these matters, but Starkey’s comments shocked me and he deserves all the criticism heading his way. What an absolute buffoon.
 
Hard to see how he could keep his job.
Be careful folks when you are talking about starkey.i got slaughtered for even responding to the original post about him.lucky i dont have a chip on my shoulder.
 
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Liked his history programmes but not so much his live appearances on shows such as question time
 
Thanks for the clarification.
My point, and I see i did not make it clear, is that White People as slaves in the same manner as black people were taken in to slavery had never occurred to me and I'm pretty sure it was not taught at my school and it hasn't been taught to my son either. So I wonder about the facts of it and if anyone knows or cares.
Yeah, all I can recall being taught in GCSE History was Tudors, JKF and WWI but the Ottoman and pirate slave trade sounds pretty horrific too.







And on the flip side you’ve got the Democrats virtue signalling about BLM when they were responsible for some of the most heinous discrimination against black Americans.


 
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Slaves have existed across races , and do exist , for many centuries but again it really is missing the point

I’m sure members here arent deliberately diverting but that’s what happens with this debate
 
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Slaves have existed across races , and do exist , for many centuries but again it really is missing the point

I’m sure members here arent deliberately diverting but that’s what happens with this debate
Diverting from what? What is the actual issue?
 
The original issue isn’t about slaves , or slavery . It’s a factor but not the issue .

Diverting to the fact that others were enslaved is the diversion

Actually it’s the same argument , black slaves matter doesn’t mean that any other slavery doesn’t
 
As my niece said , and never thought about this before , racists don’t think they are racist because racism isn’t Just carrying nazi flags or race war it is the insidious comments or subtle snide aside and more importantly a fear of the different or that you are losing something
 
I wasn't trying to divert anything! I was just trying to join in the conversation.
A specific set off circumstances had highlighted an area of complete ignorance on my behalf and possibly English education on the subject of slavery. The point was, I did not know and it never occurred to me, that white people had previously been subjugated in to slavery in the same way people from Africa were.
Not trying to divert anything, not trying to prove a point out to suggest the history of African people being sold in to slavery is any less as horrific or important than it is.
Just my lack of knowledge and education.
 
I wasn't trying to divert anything! I was just trying to join in the conversation.
A specific set off circumstances had highlighted an area of complete ignorance on my behalf and possibly English education on the subject of slavery. The point was, I did not know and it never occurred to me, that white people had previously been subjugated in to slavery in the same way people from Africa were.
Not trying to divert anything, not trying to prove a point out to suggest the history of African people being sold in to slavery is any less as horrific or important than it is.
Just my lack of knowledge and education.


It really wasn’t aimed at you . So sorry if it came across that way . Indeed it is an area that isn’t taught but limited time and resources to teach all history
 
As my niece said , and never thought about this before , racists don’t think they are racist because racism isn’t Just carrying nazi flags or race war it is the insidious comments or subtle snide aside and more importantly a fear of the different or that you are losing something
Actually, I don't agree with all of that. I don't think being afraid of something different or fear that you are losing something is a form of racism.
I also think that part of the problem is that there is no clear cut definition of racism. Not even in law.
The police, courts and CPS have a test applied to racial incidents but that is different from dictionary definitions, many of which are different from each other or Webster's, Oxford, dictionary.com etc
 
It’s missing the point again , it’s not that the fear of things is racist in itself but it can be the cause of racism

Trying to find a definition of racism can also be a method of kicking the can down the street , again Not accusing you of that
 
Slaves have existed across races , and do exist , for many centuries but again it really is missing the point

I’m sure members here arent deliberately diverting but that’s what happens with this debate
Diversion is rife on here as well as "whataboutery".slavery is a disgusting thing and we dont seem to learn from it.there should not even be ALM v BLM but thats the nature of man.there is racism everywhere but why do we pick and choose when and how we react to it?
 
Diversion is rife on here as well as "whataboutery".slavery is a disgusting thing and we dont seem to learn from it.there should not even be ALM v BLM but thats the nature of man.there is racism everywhere but why do we pick and choose when and how we react to it?
The problem is, racism now is becoming like feminism, which has moved to a Patriarchal concept of oppressed vs oppressor. An existential threat created by our own society, basically systemic. That's quite an over whelming concept for people to grasp.
 
The problem is, racism now is becoming like feminism, which has moved to a Patriarchal concept of oppressed vs oppressor. An existential threat created by our own society, basically systemic. That's quite an over whelming concept for people to grasp.
It's also quite sinister as it renders everyone either a racist oppressor or helpless victim. Both assumptions are ludicrous and offensive.
 
I feel really sorry for kids growing up these days. Social media is polluting their minds, creating this warped perception of reality, pushed by trojan horses.
 
I don't find the argument offensive because there are, like all discussions surrounding social justice and equality issues, a set of truisms.
I just don't think the default starting point is everyone's a racist, because it's not an effective way to begin a dialogue. Another point is, that some circumstances are universal experience, re women crossing the road or people looking at you funny or not serving, ignoring you in a bar, shop.

One black female commentator was bemoaning the lack of interest on dating apps, dating apps can be a brutal experience for everybody, nothing to do with racism.
 
Diversion is rife on here as well as "whataboutery".slavery is a disgusting thing and we dont seem to learn from it.there should not even be ALM v BLM but thats the nature of man.there is racism everywhere but why do we pick and choose when and how we react to it?

Reminded me of,

the word rascism.jpg
 
The problem is, racism now is becoming like feminism, which has moved to a Patriarchal concept of oppressed vs oppressor. An existential threat created by our own society, basically systemic. That's quite an over whelming concept for people to grasp.
It's also quite sinister as it renders everyone either a racist oppressor or helpless victim. Both assumptions are ludicrous and offensive.
These posts, just a few short lines, show how complex the issue has become.


*Long post - this just so came out!*
I'm a white guy (middle aged, middle of the road, nothing special about me) and I feel that I have no right taking about racism as I don't think I have experienced it. I worry that talking about it may end with me being perceived as a racist.

Or if I have, not in the same way as some other people who shout and protest about and against racism.

I do believe we have racism n this country. I don't believe it is down to the government (we have BAME MPs). There is no forced segregation (shops no longer allowed to have Whites Only signs and areas), no laws in place which apply or do not apply to any race, colour, religion presumed or otherwise, laws set up to prosecute with harsher sentences those who commit crimes which are motivated or aggregated by the victims perceived race/religion.

Positive discrimination is alive and well although personally I think that is a terrible thing.

The more I think about it, I think I have been a victim of racism, probably hundreds if not thousands of times.
As a white man working as a police officer in East London for 17 years.
In fact the more I think about it, I pretty much expect the BAME people I meet to distrust me and treat me with suspicion because I am a WHITE cop.
This is because I've been told so many times that I wouldn't know or understand because I'm white.
That I wouldn't help someone because I'm white or because they are BAME, which equates to the same thing). I've been told that I'm not trusted because of it. I've been told that I don't care because "they" the victim are not white or because the suspect was white.

It did used to bother me, but eventually I learned that the problem isn't with me, it's them with the predujice. The only reason I care about the colour of someone's skin is because it can help me with descriptions, with identifying someone.
I just want to do the best I can and if I can change someone's mind by being professional and showing that my belief is that at the centre of every crime, is a human being who needs my help, then brilliant.
I'm also always hopeful that the people I speak with who are BAME will not see the colour of my skin as a obstruction and we can get along and maybe even help each other.

Wow, never realised all this! Still don't believe there is any point in pointing this out to the next person who calls me a racist and tells me I don't understand their view point because I'm white...
 
I lived in east london for a lot of years.we moved there in 1971 and it was fairly mixed along racial lines.in my younger teenage years we were all pretty much afraid of the police, didnt matter what colour we were.the police at that time were allowed to stop kids maybe as young as 13 or 14 and search them for sometimes no reason other then them walking down the road.we didnt think anything much of it because its just how it was.the mechanisms were not in place to question such things.
I never thought that it made police racists although i am sure some officers were.
Things have changed a lot and now all people have more of a voice and that voice is not always used wisely.but this is where we are now and we have to deal with it.i have no idea how to fix things but we are in trouble.
 
The original issue isn’t about slaves , or slavery . It’s a factor but not the issue .

Diverting to the fact that others were enslaved is the diversion

Actually it’s the same argument , black slaves matter doesn’t mean that any other slavery doesn’t

It's BLM that bring it up, in their reparations argument. But what is the clear, straight line between black slavery (ended 150 years ago in the US, and almost 200 years ago here) and the murder of George Floyd by a Minneapolis cop? Is there one? If so, thats worth a conversation.

Here's a good one between Coleman Hughes and Sam Harris



As my niece said , and never thought about this before , racists don’t think they are racist because racism isn’t Just carrying nazi flags or race war it is the insidious comments or subtle snide aside and more importantly a fear of the different or that you are losing something

It doesn't help that the definition of racism is constantly being refined and the goalposts moved, just to make sure we are all still guilty of it. What worries me about blm, wokesters and the left in general, is that they dont appear to want racism to end. Why would they? Its their oxygen.

Surely it's intent that matters, not 'snide asides'.


slavery is a disgusting thing and we dont seem to learn from it.

What? Speak for yourself.

'We' abolished slavery almost 2 centuries ago. The US, 150 years ago. And 'we' were amoung the first civilisations to ban it, despite it persisting for millennia. That doesn't absolve us of our culpability in it, but it clearly demonstrates that we have indeed learned from it. Can you think of any western nations drawing up plans to reintroduce it?

If by 'we' you mean the entire human race, then yes, it still persists. Funnily enough, not in places that 'we' live.
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Diversion is rife on here as well as "whataboutery"

Diversion from what?
 

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