Arcam power amp advice

gryffe

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Hi,

Looking for some advice on Arcam power amps. I currently have an Arcam FMJ P35 power amp that I bought at least 10 years ago, perhaps even before that. It is still working away good style, but I have a bit of an itch to scratch and I am thinking of replacing it. I am looking at the Arcam PA410, but would only consider buying it if it will outperform the P35. Would any of you kind souls be able to give me some advice on whether this is a worthwhile upgrade, or if in fact the P35 is actually superior?

I am clueless when it comes to reading all the technical specs, so I have included links to specs for both amps. Would appreciate it if any of you peeps can have a quick scan at the specs and advise?



Thanks in advance

Kevin
 
Had to look twice at the phonos on New amp.
Why a 4 channel amp (bi-amping)?
If you run stereo, better to go 2 x 140w than 4 x 70w.
What components do
 
Had to look twice at the phonos on New amp.
Why a 4 channel amp (bi-amping)?
If you run stereo, better to go 2 x 140w than 4 x 70w.
What components do
Sorry, I didnt appreciate this was a 4 channel amp. I just need a 2 channel
 
What's your system, room like.
Are you set on replacing amp.
 
I have a Musical Fidelity MS3i integrated amp, partnered with the Arcam P35. Monitor Audio Bronze 6 floorstanders, Rega P6 deck. I dont have a CD player anymore, just stream music using a Chord 2go streamer and a Chord Hugo 2 Dac. Room approx 15ft sq. I'm not hellbent on replacing amp, it's just I've had it over 10 years and I wondered if it was maybe a bit outdated now and perhaps there were newer power amps that would outperform it these days.
 
I would say either of your amps is not limiting your system.
Power amps have not really changed in decades (maybe the new cutting edge class d I would not know)
My power amps same as 8200 same as tag 250mr 30 years ago.
Looks like you like bass would you try room eq?
 
I used to have a P35, good amp.

I think your system sounds balanced at the moment and the P35 is more than capable of driving the Bronzes. Unless there is some aspect of the sound you’re specifically unhappy with, I’d try to resist the temptation to upgrade.
 
I agree that if it aint broke.... especially for a power amp. You've got a great setup there.

Might want to look into adding a small musical sub if you really want to spend money. At least you will see a more significant difference. LOL.
 
Hi, thanks, I am happy enough with sound at the moment, but everybody wants more right, lol?
So yeah, all things considered I'll probably stick with what I have. I wonder if I could pick your brains though. Currently I have 8 runs of speaker cable with banana plugs both ends, the 4 x HF cables from each of the speakers are feeding the 4 x power output terminals of the MS3i (there are only 4), and the 4 x LF cables from the speakers are feeding 4 out of 8 power output terminals of the P35.
The speakers are Monitor Audio Bronze 6 floorstanders. Should I stick with this configuration or miss out the power output terminals on the MS3i altogether, and use all 8 power output terminals on the P35? Thanks
 
I think you have three main options and all of the kit to let your ears decide -

Assuming the speaker cable is over 1.5sq.mm cross section (2.5sq.mm better) and not run over long distances (over say 20ft) then personally I can't see the benefit of bi-wiring which will simplify things a little. So.....

1) Don't use the p35 and just connect one set of speaker cables from MS3i to speakers, put speaker jumpers in place.
2) Connect MS3i to p35 by rca cable, use MS3i as preamp and just p35 as power amp - one cable from P35 to speakers - put speaker jumpers in place.
3) Biamping - Connect MS3i to p35 by rca cable, use MS3i as integrated with one set of cables from MS3i amp to speaker HF input, P35 one set of speaker cables to LF on speakers - REMOVE jumpers.

Try all three and see what your ears like.
 
Hi, thanks for reply Ugg10.

Unless I am mistaken Option 3 is the one I currently use, and I mentioned it in my post above, but maybe I'm missing something?

By jumpers, do you mean terminal leads? If you do, for Option 1 is it just a case of using 4 runs of speaker wire from the MS3i to each speaker, eg 2 of the 4 runs go to each speaker? If so which terminals do I use, each of the speakers has 4 terminals - top 2 terminals have HF and LF, as have bottom 2. So does it not matter whether I use top or bottom? And what exactly do the jumpers do, do they compensate for the fact that only 2 of the 4 speaker terminals will have cable inserted in them?

For option 2, I am a bit confused. If I am not running any speaker cables from the MS3i, are you suggesting I only use 4 runs of speaker cable from the P35? If so the P35 has 8 speaker output plugs, rather than just the 4 speaker output plugs that the M3Si has. I also have 8 runs of speaker cable, so why would I not use all 8 runs of speaker cable - eg 4 runs of speaker cable from 4 of the 8 ouput plugs at amp connected to one speaker, and the same for other speaker? And would that also negate the use of speaker jumpers (or terminal leads if they are one and the same thing?) if using all 8 runs of speaker cable

Sorry for being thick, for being so long winded, and probably muddying the waters
 
Sorry should have been a bit clearer with my explanation. So I have added a few diagrams that hopefully show what is going on.

Bi Amp.jpg


Here is a quick pic to show how I thought I'd described the three options. As you state option 1 is really a non starter, options 2 is just using the P35 power amp and option 3 is bi-amping using the M3si for high and P35 for low. But I have illustrated just using a single set of wires as I have never found any benefit of bi-wiring.

The three pics below show what is likely to be going on inside the amp and the speaker (only left speaker shown). In short the speakers will have a crossover for the treble (high pass) and bass (low pass) which terminate in the LF/HF connectors on the rear of the speaker (4 posts) and can be joined using the metal jumpers. Similarly if an amp has two sets (8) speaker connectors then typically they are just joined in parallel inside (sometimes with switches to turn the two sets on / off, as in P35) which is why you typically can only use 8 ohm speakers if using both sets (2 sets parallel = 4 ohms = harder to drive by the amp).

So, by bi-wiring all you are doing is either joining the two sets of wires at one end or the other and given the short distances in domestic uses I can't see a reason for that to make any difference to the sound. The assumption here is that the wires have around 2.5sq.mm cross-section and are of OFC copper construction (typical available for around £3-5/m max e.g. Van Damme Blue 2.5mm).

Anyway, have a play at all three combination and see which sound the best to your ears and then try bi-wiring to see if that makes a difference.

My final comment would be that using different manufacturers for treble HF and LF, you need to check they have the same gain structure otherwise when you change the volume the LF and HF will change deferentially. For Example (exaggerating for effect), if the HF amp has a gain of 20db and the LF 10dB then if you double the input voltage (turn the volume knob) the HF volume will be perceived as 4 time louder and the LF just 2 time louder. This is why I suggest the use of the M3si as a preamp amp and the P35 for power amp duties may be the most balanced sound.

Hope this helps.

Slide1.JPG
Slide2.JPG
Slide3.JPG
 
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Hi Ugg, thanks for the fantastic summary and display,I really appreciate your time and effort, although I must admit admit some of the more technical points went zooming over my head!! lol
I will have a play about tomorrow, but I have a hunch I have already got the best config already in use - eg option 3. And it seems like you agree.
I have been doing a bit searching online and think I would eventually like to partner the Arcam SA30 integrated amp with the P35, and just sell the M3Si. This would mean I could still use Option 3, and has the added bonus of system matching, and I assume the SA30 is a better amp than the M3Si, as good an amp as that appears to be.

Here is the guff on the SA30.

 
I suspect with the sa30 your p35 will also become redundant. Note the p35 is a clas AB and and the sa30 one of the new class G amps So I would audition to make sure they play well together or if you even need the p35.
 
Also, with an amp of that class then the speakers become the weak point so may limit the overall system. Welcome to the never ending upgrade spiral!
 
Yep was just thinking that lol.
I found a similar problem when trying to match DACS with streamers and amps. Just when you think youve cracked it you realise one of the components doesnt allow you to do what you want to do and match up with the others!
 
I’d say if you’re planning on getting an SA30 then sell the P35 too and acquire the funds more quickly! The SA30 alone is enough to drive your speakers and several levels of speakers above too.
 
Thanks DT79. Will phone the shop this morning and run all the details by them, and see if they can give me a good deal
 
option 3 is bi-amping using the M3si for high and P35 for low. But I have illustrated just using a single set of wires as I have never found any benefit of bi-wiring.
That post is an excellent explanation, and I just want to say I agree totally with the bit I've quoted. I'm currently set up similarly to option 3 (though with an extra power amp and 3-way speakers). I've definitely found benefits from bi-amping as in option 3 (or tri-amping). But I've never heard any benefits bi-wiring from a single amp.

The connections at the amp's speaker outputs and the connections at the speakers themselves are effectively electrically identical*, so all bi-wiring does is effectively just make the cables thicker - and I can only see a benefit there if your cable is too thin to start with.

I know some people claim bi-wiring can make a difference if you use two different cables, one that's supposedly better at high frequencies and one better at low frequencies. But I've never heard (or read of) any convincing evidence that such cable differences exist at audio frequencies.

(*Unless the cable is stupidly designed, its resistance, capacitance and inductance levels will be way too low to possibly make any difference)
 
Thanks everyone for all your input, suggestions, and patience - and a special award for artistic license to Ugg10!!

Got a terrific deal on an SA30.
To keep costs down I was initially going to purchase a demo SA30 for £1499.99, and they were offering me £850 trade in for M3Si. Then the dealer said why don't you buy a brand new SA30, RRP £1999.99 and we'll give you £1000 trade in for M3Si. Seemed like a no brainer so went for it. Means I can partner with the P35, or use as a (hopefully)fantastic integrated in it's own right. If I decide to do that I can then sell the P35.
I'll keep you posted, if anybody is still interested lol.
 
Thanks everyone for all your input, suggestions, and patience - and a special award for artistic license to Ugg10!!

Got a terrific deal on an SA30.
To keep costs down I was initially going to purchase a demo SA30 for £1499.99, and they were offering me £850 trade in for M3Si. Then the dealer said why don't you buy a brand new SA30, RRP £1999.99 and we'll give you £1000 trade in for M3Si. Seemed like a no brainer so went for it. Means I can partner with the P35, or use as a (hopefully)fantastic integrated in it's own right. If I decide to do that I can then sell the P35.
I'll keep you posted, if anybody is still interested lol.

Congrats! I'm sure it's gonna be a sweet amp.
 
Thanks everyone for all your input, suggestions, and patience - and a special award for artistic license to Ugg10!!

Got a terrific deal on an SA30.
To keep costs down I was initially going to purchase a demo SA30 for £1499.99, and they were offering me £850 trade in for M3Si. Then the dealer said why don't you buy a brand new SA30, RRP £1999.99 and we'll give you £1000 trade in for M3Si. Seemed like a no brainer so went for it. Means I can partner with the P35, or use as a (hopefully)fantastic integrated in it's own right. If I decide to do that I can then sell the P35.
I'll keep you posted, if anybody is still interested lol.
Just bought an ex demo sa30 for £1499 - perhaps the same one (Nin). I bought an Audiolab 6000a a week ago, and was looking at potentially a TEAC nt505 to go with it. But having spoken to the dealer, they are taking the 6000a back, and swapping out for the SA30. So, better amp, Dirac, built in Roon endpoint (fingers crossed), all for a couple hundred cheaper. It also gives me a clear upgrade path - front speakers, but that is another conversion that will hopefully be sometime away.
 
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