Article: Has OLED reached its peak?

jdevil

Distinguished Member
Only thing that's left for OLED is to start with the price reduction, we need some £799 OLED screens in the market.
 

the hoff

Active Member
I can agree with a significant portion of the argument in this article but it is worth remembering that LG's OLED displays are not 'true' RGB OLEDs in that they only (as I understand it) use a white pixel and a series of colour filters to achieve the picture. Samsung have been working on true RGB OLEDs (that is a red, green and blue sub-pixel) for more than 10 years now but the production process is extremely challenging to commercialise. I would guess that these RGB OLEDs may still be affected by issues such as peak brightness and burn in (although I have seen zero instances on my 2017 E6) but surely the use of three separate sub-pixels would allow OLEDs to achieve a wider colour gamut?

Personally speaking I think OLEDs will be around for a good while yet and will probably represent the best (if not perfect) display technology until true micro-LED sets become available at anything like sensible prices (at least <£4000 for a 65-inch) which could be 3-4 years away looking at current prices (not to mention the lack of interest from the non-enthusiast)
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
Excellent article. Very comprehensive and insightful.


I understand Samsung is going to produce OLED displays with QDOT.

Often what manufactures avoid talking about is vertical banding on OLEDS. Just read any OLED owners thread here and count how many returns/swaps due to vertical banding. PERHAPS THIS IS ALSO A LIMITATION unless manufacturing improves. Maybe Printing screens is a solution.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
Excellent article. Very comprehensive and insightful.


I understand Samsung is going to produce OLED displays with QDOT.

Often what manufactures avoid talking about is vertical banding on OLEDS. Just read any OLED owners thread here and count how many returns/swaps due to vertical banding. PERHAPS THIS IS ALSO A LIMITATION unless manufacturing improves. Maybe Printing screens is a solution.
I think complaints about banding have come down in the last couple of years. It was discussed a lot, but now it doesn't strike me as being discussed any more then DSE or uneven backlight on the LCD forums.

The hottest topic currently is Burn in/out. But having been on this forum since the early Plasma days, I suspect that will always be a hot topic. Wether it's prevalent or rare, given it's unlikely there will ever be a no questions asked cover in warranty, people will always question it.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I doubt there will be any further leaps. Other than prices coming down, particularly for bigger panels.

We've seen uniformity improve. As they tweak the manufacturing process i'm sure that area will keep improving. We'll get some increases in brightness, but I never watch mine above 60% OLED light already. And HDR is plenty bright enough. And colour Gamut coverage may improve, but IMO that's still marginal given it's already sufficient for most content.

IMO everything will be incremental from here.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I can agree with a significant portion of the argument in this article but it is worth remembering that LG's OLED displays are not 'true' RGB OLEDs in that they only (as I understand it) use a white pixel and a series of colour filters to achieve the picture. Samsung have been working on true RGB OLEDs (that is a red, green and blue sub-pixel) for more than 10 years now but the production process is extremely challenging to commercialise. I would guess that these RGB OLEDs may still be affected by issues such as peak brightness and burn in (although I have seen zero instances on my 2017 E6) but surely the use of three separate sub-pixels would allow OLEDs to achieve a wider colour gamut.
Aside from the issues you've already mentioned, another problem with RGB OLED is that the blue sub-pixel decays faster than the other two. This is the main reason LG pursued WRGB and Samsung abandoned its RGB OLED TVs, although the latter is still one of the largest manufacturers of AMOLED screens for mobile devices.

The Sony professional OLED monitor, which used a Panasonic panel and is no longer available, used RGB on a 32-inch screen size, but it still only delivered 100% of DCI-P3 and 1,000nits. It also had a shorter lifespan compared to consumer OLED TVs, which is one of the reasons why the professionals are moving to a new Dual LCD monitor for mastering work. The latter will also be brighter, more consistent and won't suffer from image retention or screen burn.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
I think complaints about banding have come down in the last couple of years. It was discussed a lot, but now it doesn't strike me as being discussed any more then DSE or uneven backlight on the LCD forums.

The hottest topic currently is Burn in/out. But having been on this forum since the early Plasma days, I suspect that will always be a hot topic. Wether it's prevalent or rare, given it's unlikely there will ever be a no questions asked cover in warranty, people will always question it.
No. Burn in is a non issue. Vertical Banding is number 1 reason for returns. Owners threads.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I understand Samsung is going to produce OLED displays with QDOT.

Often what manufactures avoid talking about is vertical banding on OLEDS. Just read any OLED owners thread here and count how many returns/swaps due to vertical banding. PERHAPS THIS IS ALSO A LIMITATION unless manufacturing improves. Maybe Printing screens is a solution.
There's been a lot of talk about QD-OLED, but I don't think it's the great saviour that some people believe it to be. I haven't seen a single demo yet, suggesting it's still some way off.

The vertical banding is a limitation of the technology, and relates to how power is distributed across the panel to energise the pixels. However, while it is still there, it's rarely visible with normal viewing material and has got much better over the last five years.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
The hottest topic currently is Burn in/out. But having been on this forum since the early Plasma days, I suspect that will always be a hot topic. Wether it's prevalent or rare, given it's unlikely there will ever be a no questions asked cover in warranty, people will always question it.
I think image retention and burn-in is the big unknown when it comes to OLED. There's no doubt that early models were more susceptible, but new features have been introduced that seem to mitigate the risk. I've owned three OLEDs (B7, C8 and C9) and I haven't any problems with image retention or screen burn so far. However with panels being driven harder and harder, I wonder whether this might become more of an issue as the TVs age.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
Steve, I am curious to know if you only watch streaming content such as Netflix. Is any of the HDR content delivered higher then 1000 nits via streaming. If not, then for people only viewing via streaming [Netflix HDR, Amazon HDR10, iTUNES HDR, Disney+ HDR] there is no benefit for 1000 nits.
 

Desk

Well-known Member
I'm not one to scaremonger, but the concern about burn-in is a real one - especially if you're committing a large sum to one of the larger sets.

It's also interesting that burn-in became more of an issue with the 2017 sets, presumably due to an issue with they way they were constructed or driven. To my knowledge, we don't know what caused that, and there's always a fear that some new development in the sets might see this repeated and you could be part of that 'unlucky year' with no recourse for a £7000 refund.

I'm interested to know what the introduction of workable BFI might do in regards to burn-in. With the addition of intermittent black frames does this mean that when the panel is illuminated it's being driven harder than without BFI, potentially increasing the chance of burn-in, or does the intermittent nature balance things out and potentially offset the chance of burn-in because pixels are not being asked to display an intensity of image constantly - only showing it for a fraction of a second at a time?

Desk
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
Steve, I am curious to know if you only watch streaming content such as Netflix. Is any of the HDR content delivered higher then 1000 nits via streaming. If not, then for people only viewing via streaming [Netflix HDR, Amazon HDR10, iTUNES HDR, Disney+ HDR] there is no benefit for 1000 nits.
Most of them are capped around 1,000 nits including UHDs.

WB / Sony UHDs usually are 4000-10000 nits.

Disney are the worst of the lot. Most of their releases are low APL.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
Most of them are capped around 1,000 nits including UHDs.

WB / Sony UHDs usually are 4000-10000 nits.

Disney are the worst of the lot. Most of their releases are low APL.
Thank you. I understand you know the light nits for UHD’s, but for streaming surely only the Mastering Colourists know this when they created a Digital version.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
It is like the endless discussion on music streamed lossless from Qobuz, TIDAL HIFI, etc. Only the Acoustic Mastering Engineers know what the full dynamic range is of the digital version they created compared to the Master Track. Then it gets more complicated with streaming process which could compromise dynamic range further for many reasons.

So just wondering is anything in HDR via Streaming going to be beneficial for a TV with 1000nits. Who knows.
 

Zigourney

Active Member
No. Burn in is a non issue. Vertical Banding is number 1 reason for returns. Owners threads.
I have to agree here, I've got a 65C8 bought during the world cup 2018 and no burn in issues on mine. I think for normal mixed viewing at home, its a non issue.

However the biggest issues talked about on the forums are banding/screen uniformity and the flashing macro blocking issues (think it was termed chroma overshoot by Vincent). If LG can produce a band free/uniform and flashing macroblocking free panel then that will be the biggest improvement.

Personally I watch movies with the lights off and I find my 65inch Panel PLENTY bright, in Dolby Vision, the amount of light it blasts out sometimes can be blinding in a dark room environment in certain scenes, so panel brightness for me is also a non issue.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
I have to agree here, I've got a 65C8 bought during the world cup 2018 and no burn in issues on mine. I think for normal mixed viewing at home, its a non issue.

However the biggest issues talked about on the forums are banding/screen uniformity and the flashing macro blocking issues (think it was termed chroma overshoot by Vincent). If LG can produce a band free/uniform and flashing macroblocking free panel then that will be the biggest improvement.

Personally I watch movies with the lights off and I find my 65inch Panel PLENTY bright, in Dolby Vision, the amount of light it blasts out sometimes can be blinding in a dark room environment in certain scenes, so panel brightness for me is also a non issue.
Totally agree.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
No. Burn in is a non issue. Vertical Banding is number 1 reason for returns. Owners threads.
I'm not claiming its prevalent or common, but its the main negative the forum is discussing. Wether that be because someone has suffered from it, or it's holding them back from switching to OLED.

IMO vertical banding is rarely discussed now. It was the most common topic for returns a few years ago. But now it doesnt strike me as being more common then people returning LCD's for DSE or uneven backlight.
 

Jason72

Active Member
As a non-technical Forum member, but an owner of both a 65" LG-E6V and also a 55" LG-E6V I am (even now) surprised by the quality of picture on both these screens. What I find laughable is how people go on about pushing the technology barriers even further to improve picture quality when the simple fact is that there isn't enough 4K content out there for users to watch. Why in the world would people (or Manufacturer's) be pushing for 8K and 16K screens.
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
I'm not claiming its prevalent or common, but its the main negative the forum is discussing. Wether that be because someone has suffered from it, or it's holding them back from switching to OLED.

IMO vertical banding is rarely discussed now. It was the most common topic for returns a few years ago. But now it doesnt strike me as being more common then people returning LCD's for DSE or uneven backlight.
I agree there seems to be improvements, but still very relevant issue and reason people swap out. I cannot compare to DSE issue severity on LCD as not been on those threads.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I think image retention and burn-in is the big unknown when it comes to OLED. There's no doubt that early models were more susceptible, but new features have been introduced that seem to mitigate the risk. I've owned three OLEDs (B7, C8 and C9) and I haven't any problems with image retention or screen burn so far. However with panels being driven harder and harder, I wonder whether this might become more of an issue as the TVs age.
I have the FZ952 with ~2.5K hours and haven't suffered either. Hopefully I'm not tempting fate :D

But this topic haunted Plasma. Even though it wasn't very prevalent in the later years. I appreciate the manufacturers are in a tough spot. Any emissive display can suffer from burn in/out. So they have to worry about moral hazard if they cover it without question. But equally, unless it's clear the TV has been abused, they risk making it a bigger issue then it probably is by trying to wash their hands of it. If someone has a DOG or ticker and no other parts of the image burnt in, then they really should accept that's not user abuse.

Given every major manufacturer bar Samsung (who have political reasons) are shipping LG's OLED panels in their top end TV's, I struggle to believe it's a common issue. I simply struggle to believe they would all be knowingly digging themselves into a big hole. And in fact digging faster with each passing year, given they are all shipping more OLED TV's.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I agree there seems to be improvements, but still very relevant issue and reason people swap out. I cannot compare to DSE issue severity on LCD as not been on those threads.
I think like the LCD forums, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I've avoided using slides to go look for banding. If I dont see it in content, there's no point making it an issue by going and looking for it.

Unfortunately the problems in the early days has led to people recommending using slides. Both on the OLED and LCD forums. And once you start on that road, you will be perpetually swopping out panels. Like any product, you will never get perfection.

It's not trivial driving 25m sub pixels within a relatively small area, in a perfectly uniform manner. Some variation is always going to occur unfortunately. But people seem to think they will get the perfect panel. If I applied that to everything I bought, I'd be returning every product several times :D
 

Jokerr

Well-known Member
I think like the LCD forums, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I've avoided using slides to go look for banding. If I dont see it in content, there's no point making it an issue by going and looking for it.

Unfortunately the problems in the early days has led to people recommending using slides. Both on the OLED and LCD forums. And once you start on that road, you will be perpetually swopping out panels. Like any product, you will never get perfection.

It's not trivial driving 25m sub pixels within a relatively small area, in a perfectly uniform manner. Some variation is always going to occur unfortunately. But people seem to think they will get the perfect panel. If I applied that to everything I bought, I'd be returning every product several times :D
I think that Panasonic GZ2000 seems to have surprisingly good screen uniformity. However this was not a selling point, but just happily realised by owners and reviewers.
 
I have had most generations of OLED and have just bought 3 new TVs, the LG 65c9 OLED TV, Samsung Qled 950R in 55-inches and 65-inches and we all say QLED is the best TV!
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I think that Panasonic GZ2000 seems to have surprisingly good screen uniformity. However this was not a selling point, but just happily realised by owners and reviewers.
They are purportedly cherry picking panels. I read it mentioned on a few reviews. There was also some rumour that LG graded panels and used the better ones for the E series.

I'm not sure how true that is. But I suspect they may well be testing the array that drives the panel and using the most consistent for the GZ2000. That's a little easier to do on a small production run, particularly if you can get away with charging a premium. Clearly Panasonic have an advantage here, as a portion of their customers are enthusiasts and will pay more for a marginal improvement.
 

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