Article: Has OLED reached its peak?

So Steve how do you think the future of OLED thread is going, oh yeah, it's turned into a burn in thread - what a surprise LOL.

I have an LG E6 65" OLED and have had it on almost everyday for the last 3 years and never unplug it from the wall - as of yet - no dead pixels or burn in guess I'm lucky or maybe you should check this out :)

https://*/n/Extensive-Testing-Shows-OLED-Burn-In-Risk-Is-Overblown

My opinion is that OLED has peaked at least in terms of NIT'S it's a fundamental problem with the underlying tech, that's why micro led is the future :-



and as for QD OLED doubt it:-


Get a good OLED with Dolby Vision there great, but just make sure you don't leave it on a static HDR picture, ticker, logo or menu all day, it's pretty much that simple or wait 5 years and get a microled display. LCD is OK in a bright room, but OLED will beat it to death when it comes to picture quality with the right lighting in the room. How do I know, because I have both and my Samsung 4K HDR QD TV (NOT AS GOOD), brighter maybe, but the LG with DV content, is just WOW and beats my Samsung all day long.

From the horses mouth so to speak.

Another way to go is to go big and that means 82" and above, which is a different story, at least at an affordable price, but that requires a different thread. Big is good, but current PQ standards on larger (average consumer price models), leaves a lot to be desired.

The future for consumers is OLED, for at least the next 2 years at least in regard to the mid to higher end of the TV market, especially in the 55" to 65" market place. They won't be beaten by any other affordable tech when it comes to picture quality. 8K may sound good, but unless you go big, then the difference is hardly worth the extra expense or even noticable by the average user. LCD, dual cell, nanocell, QD and even mini-led etc, it's all just marketing hype in many respects for LCD.

Going brighter is all well and good, but the trade off is control of all those Nit's, which is why OLED will always be better, until microled becomes an affordable consumer reality.

Also brighter backlights consume in general more power and pump out more heat, something to keep in mind. Self emissive displays cut out the middleman so to speak and so in general will always be more power efficient.

I'm not saying mid and high end LCD's won't sell, THEY WILL, but it won't be because they beat OLED on picture quality, it will be based more on price and most likely marketing. Plus of course the great bogey man scaring the public off buying them, called burn in :)

Just my 2 cents.


You make some interesting points, but regarding HDR playback.. My QF9N just gives a better looking HDR experience compared to my GZ950.

Don't underestimate the difference all those extra nits the Qleds offer over Oled, also without the fear of pixel wear.

Oleds come alive in a pitch black room, but honestly how many family homes do this ? It's why I think Qleds are better main room TVs than Oleds. I love my GZ950 it offers an amazing piture, but so does my Q9FN.

Just opinion on my viewing habits and what I see with my own eyes with the TVs I own,
 
You make some interesting points, but regarding HDR playback.. My QF9N just gives a better looking HDR experience compared to my GZ950.

Don't underestimate the difference all those extra nits the Qleds offer over Oled, also without the fear of pixel wear.

Oleds come alive in a pitch black room, but honestly how many family homes do this ? It's why I think Qleds are better main room TVs than Oleds. I love my GZ950 it offers an amazing piture, but so does my Q9FN.

Just opinion on my viewing habits and what I see with my own eyes with the TVs I own,
I fully believe your q9fn would have better overall hdr experience. The panny will be more consistent across the board. I'm definitely open on getting an high end lcd to go along side my C9
 
I fully believe your q9fn would have better overall hdr experience. The panny will be more consistent across the board. I'm definitely open on getting an high end lcd to go along side my C9

There's not a lot in to be honest apart from the HDR and the colours are better on the Q9FN. But in a dark room the GZ takes over.
 
I’m interested in what the energy use /environmental impact of this pursuit of peak brightness is.
well, plasma was not eco friendly in that regard. FALD is also using much more than edge lit one. But...... I think that all that energy consumption went toooooo far now. I mean, it is great to have more energy efficient stuff but IMO, far more pressing issue is e-waste than anything else. The same goes for CO2 and cars. Or plastics. The idea of packing two slices of cheese was great from some POVs but look how it turned out.
Nothing really advances so much that needs a new line of products every season.
 
well, plasma was not eco friendly in that regard. FALD is also using much more than edge lit one. But...... I think that all that energy consumption went toooooo far now. I mean, it is great to have more energy efficient stuff but IMO, far more pressing issue is e-waste than anything else. The same goes for CO2 and cars. Or plastics. The idea of packing two slices of cheese was great from some POVs but look how it turned out.
Nothing really advances so much that needs a new line of products every season.

The elephant in the room is our lifestyle isn't sustainable for 7.7 billion people (and increasing). Even what we describe as poverty in our countries isn't sustainable if everyone on the planet attained that level :/

Imagine 1.3 billion Indians suddenly started eating two meat and veg 3 times a day and chucking 30% of it away. Let alone if they all get cars and every family gets their own house (rather then living as extended familys) with potable water on tap, central heating, air con, sewers, etc, etc. They all get a car when they turn 17. Fly several thousand miles for a holiday every year. Buy cheap clothes to wear a handful of times. And buy new electronics and plastic tat every year tossing the old ones away.

Most people that earn 60% or less of the median wage (our definition of poverty) still do all those things.

Will we give up those things without bloodshed? I don't think there's a single example in history of a society taking such a step back purely out of fairness, so unfortunately I doubt it. We're more likely to keep our foot on the necks of the poor (the real poor) until they manage to wrestle themselves free. Then the 💩 will hit the fan :(
 
Burn in talk overtaking everything else is happening in pretty much every OLED thread these days, and it's especially hilarious to read comments from people who've never owned one banging on about it being "flawed".

Meanwhile the many thousands of owners who have been using theirs for years without issue all apparently work for LG.

My C8 has about 2800 hours on it, and sees something in the range of 95% of its time spent in YouTube and Netflix. No sign of permanent image retention.

Can it happen? Yes. Does it happen? Yes of course, the hundreds of members who've given examples aren't lying. Will it happen to you? Probably not.


The point is IF it happens, users want to be looked after by a guaranteed warranty program for a flaw which is sadly happening MUCH more commonly than on LCD.
 
Concerning peak brightnes,i was really happy with B6 then comes B7 and was quite better in that regard and was easy to notice better brightness.But when i saw Samsung The Wall microled in live then i understand what that much higher peak brightness is bringing....its not like entire screen is shining like crazy but small details like sun shining thru branches of tree.......simply another level of realism on tv panel.
 
I love this discussion because it brings to light a bigger issue which has plauged online shoppers with misinformation. Online reviews do nothing but rave about the performance of OLED and shrug off the limitations of the the technology as insignificant. Even the 900 nit brightness mentioned here is optimistic most OLED TV's hang around the 600-700 nit mark and as mentioned drop that significantly in very bright scenes. They also brag about the contrast ratios as "Infinite contrast" when really it's more about contrast control, but black is only part of what makes up contrast, the other part being how bright the display can get which OLED is significantly limited by. Not to mention the glossy finish on the screen that they insist on using to make inky blacks is terrible with reflections. And then of course there is the limitation of their color reproduction caused by the RGBW sub pixel design. These are all the things which QLED tries to solve, though they do have to sacrifice in black level control to achieve this result. All that to say I feel like the online community tends to follow the LG display modow of "It's OLED or OLED" when in reality that is not the case for everyone. If you watch nothing but horror movies, and Sci-Fi then sure OLED is the obvious choice but if you watch a lot of nature documentaries, or animated content, or anything with bright and colorful images a QLED is going to be a better fit for you. Don't just take the advice of what you read online there is no such thing as a perfect TV (yet), you are going to have to sacrifice something to get better performance somewhere else, and it is up to you to decide where you want to make those compromises for other benifits depending on your use case scenario.

 
I love this discussion because it brings to light a bigger issue which has plauged online shoppers with misinformation. Online reviews do nothing but rave about the performance of OLED and shrug off the limitations of the the technology as insignificant. Even the 900 nit brightness mentioned here is optimistic most OLED TV's hang around the 600-700 nit mark and as mentioned drop that significantly in very bright scenes. They also brag about the contrast ratios as "Infinite contrast" when really it's more about contrast control, but black is only part of what makes up contrast, the other part being how bright the display can get which OLED is significantly limited by. Not to mention the glossy finish on the screen that they insist on using to make inky blacks is terrible with reflections. And then of course there is the limitation of their color reproduction caused by the RGBW sub pixel design. These are all the things which QLED tries to solve, though they do have to sacrifice in black level control to achieve this result. All that to say I feel like the online community tends to follow the LG display modow of "It's OLED or OLED" when in reality that is not the case for everyone. If you watch nothing but horror movies, and Sci-Fi then sure OLED is the obvious choice but if you watch a lot of nature documentaries, or animated content, or anything with bright and colorful images a QLED is going to be a better fit for you. Don't just take the advice of what you read online there is no such thing as a perfect TV (yet), you are going to have to sacrifice something to get better performance somewhere else, and it is up to you to decide where you want to make those compromises for other benifits depending on your use case scenario.
I disagree. I think its dependant on conditions you watch rather than what you watch.

I think in general terms for 99% of people, in a dark room an OLED absolutely destroys a QLED.

QLEDs have an inherent flaw in how they view HDR via brightening the image past what the creator wants, they're subjec to the standard halo/dse/backlight banding we've all tried to run away from and their black level isn't adequete in challenging scenes where it matters.

The pixel level control of an OLED is really really crazy and allows very accurate representations of what people want and specular highlights on a pitch black background does indeed impress.

For SDR performance, I struggle to see how OLED can be beat.

Sure HDR performance wise for those very bright scenes, you might see ABL kick in and it might lack that 'impact' although owning a Panasonic 902B, in a dark room I've never found it to be that impressive at all compared to how poorly I see dark scenes handled.


I don't own an OLED TV atm. I do own a FALD. But I think there is a king in regards to PQ and its OLED. Sure, some people's circumstances might SUIT an OLED.. but I think we can rest assured in regards to PQ OLED and QLED.. or should we call it LCD, aren't trading blows in anyones imagination except QLED owners. This is as evidenced by every AV shootuout.
 
No mention of motion improvements? Companies don't seem to give a damn about 24 FPS accuracy, which is sad. It's like everyone has given up, even though Hollywood won't give up either.
 
I disagree. I think its dependant on conditions you watch rather than what you watch.

I think in general terms for 99% of people, in a dark room an OLED absolutely destroys a QLED.

QLEDs have an inherent flaw in how they view HDR via brightening the image past what the creator wants, they're subjec to the standard halo/dse/backlight banding we've all tried to run away from and their black level isn't adequete in challenging scenes where it matters.

The pixel level control of an OLED is really really crazy and allows very accurate representations of what people want and specular highlights on a pitch black background does indeed impress.

For SDR performance, I struggle to see how OLED can be beat.

Sure HDR performance wise for those very bright scenes, you might see ABL kick in and it might lack that 'impact' although owning a Panasonic 902B, in a dark room I've never found it to be that impressive at all compared to how poorly I see dark scenes handled.


I don't own an OLED TV atm. I do own a FALD. But I think there is a king in regards to PQ and its OLED. Sure, some people's circumstances might SUIT an OLED.. but I think we can rest assured in regards to PQ OLED and QLED.. or should we call it LCD, aren't trading blows in anyones imagination except QLED owners. This is as evidenced by every AV shootuout.

To be honest, my Q9FN destroys my Oled in regards to HDR impact.. The extra nits really can't be over stated on the effect it as ...

Example RESEvil 2 driving towards the garage at the start, the lights around it and the head light lamps of the police car look amazingly bright and real on the Q9FN, on my Oled they look great but lack that punch.. If that makes sense.

Also something else that hit me was how the colours look more muted on the Oled compared to the Qled.. Aftervsaying all that, turn the lights off and Oled takes over.. While the Qled you start seeing the limitations of Blooming showing up..
 
To be honest, my Q9FN destroys my Oled in regards to HDR impact.. The extra nits really can't be over stated on the effect it as ...

Example RESEvil 2 driving towards the garage at the start, the lights around it and the head light lamps of the police car look amazingly bright and real on the Q9FN, on my Oled they look great but lack that punch.. If that makes sense.

Also something else that hit me was how the colours look more muted on the Oled compared to the Qled.. Aftervsaying all that, turn the lights off and Oled takes over.. While the Qled you start seeing the limitations of Blooming showing up..

Yeah with lights on I think the extra nits is nice.

Tbh with the lights on oleds definitely lack that brightness punch. I think lights off tho.. the oleds just take over.
 
Yeah with lights on I think the extra nits is nice.

Tbh with the lights on oleds definitely lack that brightness punch. I think lights off tho.. the oleds just take over.


Oled defo better in dark room.. It's why I got the panny, even after I got burn in on my first Oled lol.
But the Q9FN really is a beast and watching a 4k HDR movie on it really shows what HDR can do. It's my goto TV when I'm tryimg to show off HDR to people who don't really get it.. Oled just doesn't have the same impact.
 
Oled defo better in dark room.. It's why I got the panny, even after I got burn in on my first Oled lol.
But the Q9FN really is a beast and watching a 4k HDR movie on it really shows what HDR can do. It's my goto TV when I'm tryimg to show off HDR to people who don't really get it.. Oled just doesn't have the same impact.
I'm definitely looking at the Samsung 950ts. I'm starting to like my C9. Sdr is absolutely king. Hdr the picture is very consistent and highlights well localised. Nice balanced picture. Personally there's not much init on oled vs high end lcd
 
“There was also some rumour that LG graded panels and used the better ones for the E series.
I'm not sure how true that is.”


If you listen to the latest AVFORUMS Podcast - Phil mentions this is not true. He asked LG about it at CES.
E6 65" absolutely superb with no issues and very happy with it's brightness in all viewing conditions :smashin:
 
Has OLED reached it's peak? Not while it's missing 3D it hasn't.
They're still releasing 3D movies on Blu-ray, so give us something to watch it on.
You took the words right out of my head !!! 3D was top of my list when purchasing my E6.
 
Mad Steve my E7 blinds me it goes that bright especially at night I have to switch to isf darkroom to avoid eye strain.Lcd is way too bright it looks unnatural with my eyes.Perhaps your eyes are very different to mine as we all have different vision.Ive seen you moan loads of time about dse in the Samsung threads.I love football and dse just kills football so for me with my eyes there’s no contest.
Ive seen a Q90 in hdr my friend has one and it actually gave me a headache.Oled is just so natural it’s like looking out my window it’s like true to life colour but that’s with my eyes which will be very different to yours.In no way am I saying one is better than the other.Perhaps your with your eyes the lcd to you does look better but we judge what suits our own eyes and there’s no right or wrong or this is better or worse.People just go with what looks best to them.
 
Mad Steve my E7 blinds me it goes that bright especially at night I have to switch to isf darkroom to avoid eye strain.Lcd is way too bright it looks unnatural with my eyes.Perhaps your eyes are very different to mine as we all have different vision.Ive seen you moan loads of time about dse in the Samsung threads.I love football and dse just kills football so for me with my eyes there’s no contest.
Ive seen a Q90 in hdr my friend has one and it actually gave me a headache.Oled is just so natural it’s like looking out my window it’s like true to life colour but that’s with my eyes which will be very different to yours.In no way am I saying one is better than the other.Perhaps your with your eyes the lcd to you does look better but we judge what suits our own eyes and there’s no right or wrong or this is better or worse.People just go with what looks best to them.

My eyes are fine well almost.. Point I was making the HDR impact just seems better on the Qled due to the extreme brightness you also don’t need to turn off lights to get most out of it.
I did say if you turn lights off the oled takes over as you don’t need that extreme brightness in a dark room and this is where Oled shines.
But your right it’s all in the eye of the beholder.. Iv show off the HDR on both to my loving Wife who knows nothing about tech, and she prefers the Qled because It wows her more.

Unscientific 100%, but it’s interesting, and a debate for another day mate 👍
 
This discussion about bright room viewing is irrelevant to most of the movie watchers. Movies are meant to be watched in the dark just like we watch them in the Cinemas.

I can't wait to see the complaints about how DIM and juddery FILMMAKER MODE looks.
 
99% of the content I watch on my 65C9 is SDR and viewed with ISF darkroom picture presets with 35 oled light (130 nits ish )
This looks perfect to my eyes for almost all occasions apart from the odd bright sunny day when I get a couple of hours direct sunlight in to the room.
When I do get a chance to watch a box set or film its alway in the evening under light controller environment so this picture preset is perfect and so Is the brightness .
When I do watch the 1% of HDR content I watch is usually in in evening in a light controlled environment also, and as good as HDR looks I still find a 2 hour HDR film tiring on my eyes .
I'm finding myself switching on a lamp halfway through a film to help with eye strain , and that then tends to distract my attention from the film more than watching an SDR film in a pitch black room.
So for me oled doesn't need more nits , for me it's always been about having an inky black canvas from which the image can shine from.
If oled peaked at 1000 nits that would more than enough for me .
 
Sorry, but there is no grading of panels by LG or Panasonic.
Watch the videos, both say it is engineering, not panel grading.
Both are engineers, not marketing, so their answers are honest and accurate. I asked these questions to put to bed the rumours going around on Forums where its guesswork and not fact-based.


Phil,
I have read some of your OLED TV reviews. Your review of the LG C9, for instance, doesn’t mention burn in. Why?
 
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99% of the content I watch on my 65C9 is SDR and viewed with ISF darkroom picture presets with 35 oled light (130 nits ish )
This looks perfect to my eyes for almost all occasions apart from the odd bright sunny day when I get a couple of hours direct sunlight in to the room.
When I do get a chance to watch a box set or film its alway in the evening under light controller environment so this picture preset is perfect and so Is the brightness .
When I do watch the 1% of HDR content I watch is usually in in evening in a light controlled environment also, and as good as HDR looks I still find a 2 hour HDR film tiring on my eyes .
I'm finding myself switching on a lamp halfway through a film to help with eye strain , and that then tends to distract my attention from the film more than watching an SDR film in a pitch black room.
So for me oled doesn't need more nits , for me it's always been about having an inky black canvas from which the image can shine from.
If oled peaked at 1000 nits that would more than enough for me .
Can’t agree more sir and we are blessed to live in a time with such picture quality.
However, things oled can improve on directly or via a new technology (micro led) are:
1. Peak brightness. 1000 nits brightness is plenty but some movies are graded 4000 and future 100000. Brightness equal color volume...
You need to see a 4000 nits pro monitor in action...impressive hdr...biased light advised indeed and sun cream :)
2. Abl: that’s one of the biggest for me...we should be able to hit 600 nits 25 or 50 percent of the screen...forget full screen.
3. Burn in risk: simply covered at least once will be fair...
4. Colors deterioration and degradatiion in time...organic means decay we like it or not.
5. Color volume: that’s why Samsung is banking on qantum dot oled.
6. Motion: here we have Sony trying to improve further by applying pixel Level BFI. They started doing that on Lcd (zonal bfi)

To be clear, I am agreeing with you but things can always improve. That’s the fun part as long as we also learn to enjoy what we have today...I am in love with my Oled...still honeymoon even 😘😘😘
 
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Can’t agree more sir and we are blessed to live in a time with such picture quality.
However, things oled can improve on directly or via a new technology (micro led) are:
1. Peak brightness. 1000 nits brightness is plenty but some movies are graded 4000 and future 100000. Brightness equal color volume...
You need to see a 4000 nits pro monitor in action...impressive hdr...biased light advised indeed and sun cream :)
2. Abl: that’s one of the biggest for me...we should be able to hit 600 nits 25 or 50 percent of the screen...forget full screen.
3. Burn in risk: simply covered at least once will be fair...
4. Colors deterioration and degradatiion in time...organic means decay we like it or not.
5. Color volume: that’s why Samsung is banking on qantum dot oled.
6. Motion: here we have Sony trying to improve further by applying pixel Level BFI. They started doing that on Lcd (zonal bfi)

To be clear, I am agreeing with you but things can always improve. That’s the fun part as long as we also learn to enjoy what we have today...I am in love with my Oled...still honeymoon even 😘😘😘


Awesome points. Sadly I think a lot of what you mentioned are technical limitations.

I don’t see much room for major improvement in 1, 3, 4 and possibly even 6.

I think the next major leap in tv technology will hopefully be the Samsung quantum oleds but given how Samsung’s qled series is, I am not very optimistic
 
Awesome points. Sadly I think a lot of what you mentioned are technical limitations.

I don’t see much room for major improvement in 1, 3, 4 and possibly even 6.

I think the next major leap in tv technology will hopefully be the Samsung quantum oleds but given how Samsung’s qled series is, I am not very optimistic
Thanks mate.
I have to agree with you on most points except that for me oled is destined to occupy the mid range. They will improve some stuff especially if qantum oled works but will be forever limited...
My prediction is:
1. Mini led will become prominent 2021/22/23 and will break the 2000-4000 nits barrier. Will occupy the mid to high range
2. Oled will eat on old lcd market share and the below 55 size is a clear signal (edge and standard fald will occupy entry to medium...qantum oled May allow oled it to resist mini led onslaught in the high end category...
2. Micro led will be within reach in 2023/24/25 and will be the future

My point is that unless unexpected issues with my current set, this is the first and last oled i will buy based on previous estimate..

Hope Sony and pana will wake up to mini led at IFA. These two can produce scary lcd TVs if they wanted (and that’s the problem)
 

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