Answered AV receiver for hifi - myths vs reality?

JoYork

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I'm looking to buy a new hifi system and an audiophile acquaintance recommended dedicated Onkyo A9010 amp, Cambridge DAC-magic, Audio Bronze 2 speakers and then said to build a fanless mini PC which would connect to the DAC and send files digitally.

I get the reasoning behind all this - separates are easier to change one by one and theoretically the sound quality should be better than a device that has it all built in.

But this is my quandary: is the sound quality actually that different though? The reason I was thinking about buying an AV Receiver (Denon AVRX2300W)instead of separate amp/dac/pc is for the convenience of having everything in one box. I probably will connect it to the TV, but I'm mainly wanting to play music through it.

I went in to Richer Sounds at lunchtime and the sales guy there was saying that the amps and DACs they put in AV receivers are very low quality and because everything's all in one box there's going to be loads more interference than a separate system. Again, I ask you: REALLY? He's recommended a network streamer and the Onkyo A9010 amp. I'd be interested to know if there's any real-world difference (other than initial sound volume) between the amp in the network streamer and the one in the Onkyo.

Would appreciate everyone's comments and inputs, as I'm a complete newcomer to all this. My understanding is that modern amps and DACs don't 'colour' the music at all, and the biggest things that make a difference are the speakers and the environment they're in. But if I'm wrong, please say so.
 
The DACs used within AV receivers aren't really the issue. The issue that dicatates the lower audio performance is the fact that the signal pathways associated with the processing required are far more complex and more prone to distortion. The power supply is also compromised because it has to dole out power to multiple amplification stages as opposed to just the 2 associated with stereo integrated amplifiers. Even the additional digital circuitry associated with video and other aspects of an AV receiver can influence the analogue audio pathways detrimentally.
 
Like any range of components the further you go up the food chain the better the quality. I only use my receiver for music, however my current Denon 6200 is far better for stereo music than the 2310 receiver which it replaced. The receiver has to be jack of all trades as I don't have the room for seperate amps to drive the front speakers.

I've got an old Onkyo combined CD player and amp which at the moment I use exclusively for headphone use. The 6200 is far in front of it.
 
The question you are asking has multiple answers, and I presume everyone will have a different opinion based on their experience and knowledge. If you can listen to any potential purchase before committing to the sale (preferably in your room) that would be advisable.

For me, I have had three low to mid range receivers which were a bit lacking in dynamic excitement for music, I added a very cheap pro power amp to the pre-outs to drive the front left and rights, and boom, massive improvement.

I now have a high end Cambridge Audio AVR, as I wanted a tidier one box solution, and that sounds very nice all round. However, in a blind test, I wonder if I would be able to tell the difference between the £2K AVR, and the £150 power amp, connected to my CD player via analogues (using the CD players DAC). I am not sure if I would.
 
connected to my CD player via analogues (using the CD players DAC). I am not sure if I would.

I toying with the idea of getting a Marantz 6006 CD just to use with headphones, save using the Pio and Denon. Will fit analogues sooner or later though.
 
The DACs used within AV receivers aren't really the issue. The issue that dicatates the lower audio performance is the fact that the signal pathways associated with the processing required are far more complex and more prone to distortion. The power supply is also compromised because it has to dole out power to multiple amplification stages as opposed to just the 2 associated with stereo integrated amplifiers. Even the additional digital circuitry associated with video and other aspects of an AV receiver can influence the analogue audio pathways detrimentally.
This seams to be my experience too. The ARCAM i have now has far better channel separation and the sound is cleaner that the one it replaced. I have tried alternative DAC etc and they make little difference.

The idea of a NAS is a good one as they can run a music/video server app and is better then trying to use a PC. Most AVR have a client
 
You'd not need an AV receiver to access audio content stored on a NAS. There are a few reviews of all in one stereo integrated setups posted to the board just recently. These amps have integral DACs and network audio capabilities and the conclusions drawn were that they offer as good as comparably priced separates when it comes to their audio performance. AS said though, these are not AV receivers.

If is often suggested that you need to spend two or three times the cost of an intergrated stereo amplifier to get the same kind of audio performance from a multichannel AV receiver or amp. If only interested in stereo then you get more value for your money by buying dedicated stereo solutions as opposed to multichannel options.
 
I had a demo of a Denon DM40 with Zensor 1s and Monitor Audio Bronze 1s in Richer Sounds last week. The guys there said either is a great combination and for an average sized living/dining room you will be hard pressed to notice the difference in sound quality.

Yes I could get separates but I prefer simplicity and from what my uneducated ears heard it sounded great! Demoed some music and also connected to a TV via optical and watched 10-15 minutes of The Martian would also worked a treat.
 
To the OP, if you are only ever planning on running two speakers, I wouldn't bother getting an AVR, stick with a stereo integrated amp, but maybe one with a bit more headroom than the Onkyo you mention, which seems a bit low powered at 40 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

However, if you are planning on expanding to a multi speaker, surround sound set-up, then an AVR now, might be a good idea. If you can stretch to the next Denon model up, the 3xxx series or better, they have pre-outs which means you can add additional external amplification later on, if you want to make further upgrades.
 
Thanks everyone, lots to think about here!

I don't think I'll bother with surround sound speakers - 2 will be sufficient. Perhaps a centre speaker or subwoofer, but most likely not.

The main reason for thinking along the lines of an AVR was for features - they look as though they're a swiss army knife and most seem to have decent phone apps to control them. I do have a NAS I can point the device to, but I was also wanting to stream from other sources (e.g. internet radio) and most likely hook up the TV and games console.

My main worry was if I buy an AVR then if what the sales guy sales is true then I won't be getting the best quality for normal stereo music. I was wanting to know if the amps inside these things are up to the job, and do they add any distortion, and is it really true about interference?

I definitely need to have a listen to some actual kit (I'm interested to listen to the differences between the Q Acoustic 3020s and the Monitor Audio Bronze 2s) but it's also a good opportunity to listen to a range of kit which sends the sound to the speakers in the first place.

If I don't go for the Denon AVR, can anyone recommend a decent alternative? My budget is around £600 for everything.
 
You are right about the features on an AVR, but you can get those features or more by adding a streamer to your system, some of them are very inexpensive (I'm thinking along the lines of a chromecast audio for £30, or a cheap android tv box).

If you have a smart TV, you may have many of those features already. You could then connect the audio out of the TV into your amp, via HDMI ARC (if an AVR) or digital audio out, or analogue audio out. This would then work for anything connected to the TV, including the inbuilt apps, and any connected devices, such as the games console.

If they still have stock, Peter Tyson (amongst others) were selling off last years Kef q models for half price, the Kef Q500's for example can be had for £350

KEF Q500 Floorstanding Speakers

Add in £30 for a chromecast audio, that leaves £220 for an amp.

How about the Cambridge Audio Topaz SR10:

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO TOPAZ SR10Black Stereo Receiver

In theory, that should sound better than a entry level / low range AVR, but you should definitely listen for yourself at a demo and I would be interested to know what you think.

That is a little over budget, so cheaper speakers would be the Kef Q300's at £269 instead of £449:

KEF Q300 Bookshelf Speakers

But then, you will need to budget in for speaker stands, which aren't cheap. Also with floorstanders, generally you get better bass response that bookshelf speakers, but that isn't a definitive.
 
You are celestial! I had completely forgotten that I've got an Android TV which could drive most of this, and it has optical out which can connect into an amp. The TV has apps for Google Music, Spotify, connecting to NAS devices, everything, and I can turn the screen off once it's playing music. The TV would only be sending raw data so there'd be no worries about using the TV's DAC or Amp.

I was thinking I'd need to build a mini PC but this makes everything a lot simpler. Thank you so much.

Those KEF Q300 speakers look great too, although I'll have to look at getting some stands.
 
Only downside with that amp is I can't see any optical input.
 
Great, glad I could help! Ah yes, there is no optical, I missed that.

Just to throw a bit more leftfield info for you to ponder. I use a pro power amp in one of my set-ups because you get an awful lot of bang for your buck. They deliver a lot of power and are very cheap. Downside is that they generally only have one set of stereo analogue inputs, no remote control, and no triggers, and some have cooling fans, which may be noisy.

With mine, which is a Behringer A500, it currently costs approx £170 and delivers 125 watts per channel into 8 ohms, no fans, so completely silent. Crown are the other make which make similar amps.

You could use one of those, and either put a DAC behind it to act as a pre-amp, or use your TV as the pre-amp. You could then leave the volume dials on the power amp at maximum, and control the volume remotely from the TV, or other source / DAC.

This is not a usual route, but as you are on a limited budget, it might help you.

I was a bit sceptical about the Behringer, so I purchased one from a well known retailer with excellent returns policy, in case it didn't work out.
 
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They look good.. but not cheap. The Marantz PM6006 is 45 watts x 2 into 8 ohms. And the Denon audio player is £329. I wonder if it is really ten times better than a £30 chromecast audio?!

Just my views of course, and I have not heard either of these products, so they may well be worth every penny. But I never cease to be amazed at how expensive these hi-fi / home cinema devices are in comparison to pro audio. They are certainly prettier and more convenient though.
 
They look good.. but not cheap. The Marantz PM6006 is 45 watts x 2 into 8 ohms. And the Denon audio player is £329. I wonder if it is really ten times better than a £30 chromecast audio?!

Just my views of course, and I have not heard either of these products, so they may well be worth every penny. But I never cease to be amazed at how expensive these hi-fi / home cinema devices are in comparison to pro audio. They are certainly prettier and more convenient though.

The network audio player is actually £280 from Richer Sounds. PLus point is that it can be used without need of a TV to display what you are doing and there's no need to route its output via the TV.

The Marantz amp has won awards in both its current guise as well as preceding it ever including an integral DAC. Yes, it is an entry level stereo integrated amplifier, but probably one of the best available at that price point. Looking for more power? THen maybe look at the Yamaha AS501?

Can TV's handle and output FLAC and or stereo DSD files accessed over a network? The Dedicated network player can.
 
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You could always add a Chromecast audio to your equipment for internet radio. I was also considering the Denon N9 which has loads of features but maybe under powered for you....
 
I had a Denon 1803 with Tannoy Mercury speakers back in the day. I bought a Lexicon DC2 processor and used the Denons power amp. I heard no difference in sound. I bought some MK750 speakers and heard an improvement instantly. I then bought a Linn power amp and Pioneer 939 DVD player. I heard no improvement in sound.
I am highly sceptical with regards to what actually improves sound quality and what doesn't, for example, I used to believe speaker cable was critical and spent £20/meter. What HiFi among others have a lot to answer for.
 
The DACs used within AV receivers aren't really the issue. The issue that dicatates the lower audio performance is the fact that the signal pathways associated with the processing required are far more complex and more prone to distortion. The power supply is also compromised because it has to dole out power to multiple amplification stages as opposed to just the 2 associated with stereo integrated amplifiers. Even the additional digital circuitry associated with video and other aspects of an AV receiver can influence the analogue audio pathways detrimentally.

DACs and surround processors are the main issue. I assume this relates to surround MUSIC. If it had to do with with 2 channel, a integrated amp and streamer/player separates would be the way to go (one shouldn't ever be looking at a receiver). But, for surround music (4.1 or 5.1), you really need a hifi DAC and surround processor implementation on your receiver. You can't come at it with a good external DAC (pointless and silly) because it will go through another ADC and so on in the receiver. The issue with a receiver's mid-fi amplification is always alleviated by hooking an external amp to the receiver's pre outs.
 
Thought I might as well get onto this thread.Presently have a denon avr-x4500h which is used for movies for the surround channels and a seperate stereo amp via pre outs for music.Stereo amp being a naim.With all this I have a pair of Rel T7i.When playing music do I need the AVR turned on, this may sound a silly question but am having trouble integrating my two Rel subs with the 2 channel music.This is connected to the subs via a hi level speakon connector from the naim amp.The LFE channel volume on the subs seems way too high compared to the Hi level volume control.What am I doing wrong?
 
Thought I might as well get onto this thread.Presently have a denon avr-x4500h which is used for movies for the surround channels and a seperate stereo amp via pre outs for music.Stereo amp being a naim.With all this I have a pair of Rel T7i.When playing music do I need the AVR turned on, this may sound a silly question but am having trouble integrating my two Rel subs with the 2 channel music.This is connected to the subs via a hi level speakon connector from the naim amp.The LFE channel volume on the subs seems way too high compared to the Hi level volume control.What am I doing wrong?


If you are using the Naim for stereo sources, the Denon can be switched off during 2ch music playback,.

There is a issue with sub connected to the stereo amp plus av. I'd just connect the sub up to the AVR and leave it that way, it's just too much hassle. If you follow Rels advice setting to large, that's wrong, and if you send two signals the two will be combined and that causes other issues.
 
The LFE channel volume on the subs seems way too high compared to the Hi level volume control.What am I doing wrong?
That's not necessarily wrong. If the REL subs are like BK subs, the volume controls are independent so it shouldn't matter if they are at very different levels.
 

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