AVForums Podcast: Episode 207 - 29th January 2018

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
This week:

00:00:29 – Who did well in the Oscar nominations?
00:04:40 – Current competitions
00:05:10 – Philips launch their 2018 OLED and LCD TV line-up
00:17:45 – Who will win out of HDR10+ and Dolby Vision?
00:33:18 – What do we think of Dolby Cinema?
00:45:12 – Films opening this week – Lies We Tell, Journey’s End and Phantom Thread
00:48:20 – Disc releases – Kingsman: The Golden Circle, Deadfall, To the Devil a Daughter, Dr. Jekyl & Sister Hyde, Horror of Frankenstein and Straight on Until Morning
00:50:30 – Our spoiler-filled review of Star Wars: The Last Jedi
01:23:18 – Goodbyes

Presented by Phil Hinton with Steve Withers, Mark Hodgkinson, Ed Selley and Mark Botwright

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Time: 01:24:13 | File Size: 121mb | Direct Link
 

Phil1975

Distinguished Member
Never waited so much for a podcast
Just to finally hear your views on The Last Jedi.
 

Grumpyrocker

Active Member
"I'm all for equal opportunities". No Steve it's clear you're not. You really should steer clear of gender issues. At best you sound like Alan Partridge, at worse like an MRA/Redpiller.

You would think AVForums would be welcoming to all. But Steve's continued problems with the female gender blight what should be an enjoyable tech podcast. And continue to make it sound like AVForums is only interested in an audience of one half of the population.

Women in the movie industry are finally able to tell the truth. Fight back against the abuse done to them. And Steve's opinion is "maybe it's going too far". This is a garbage hot take.

Despite the nonsense Steve posted before Christmas about Star Wars being ruined by a "feminist agenda" I was prepared to see this as a blip and give AVForums another go. But no, he's at it again and I deleted the podcast a few minutes in.

Clearly Steve isn't going to change on this rubbish. But the rest of the editorial team need to take a good long look at this and decide which side of common decency they want to be on. Back in my days as an editor I certainly wouldn't let the immature prejudice of one of my team blight the rest of the our websites - both for reasons of decency and commercial considerations.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I'm entitled to my opinions and whether you agree with them or not is of complete indifference to me. The inability for anyone to have a sensible debate these days about certain subjects is a worrying trend I'm afraid.
 

Jules

Distinguished Member
"I'm all for equal opportunities". No Steve it's clear you're not. You really should steer clear of gender issues. At best you sound like Alan Partridge, at worse like an MRA/Redpiller.

You would think AVForums would be welcoming to all. But Steve's continued problems with the female gender blight what should be an enjoyable tech podcast. And continue to make it sound like AVForums is only interested in an audience of one half of the population.

Women in the movie industry are finally able to tell the truth. Fight back against the abuse done to them. And Steve's opinion is "maybe it's going too far". This is a garbage hot take.

Despite the nonsense Steve posted before Christmas about Star Wars being ruined by a "feminist agenda" I was prepared to see this as a blip and give AVForums another go. But no, he's at it again and I deleted the podcast a few minutes in.

Clearly Steve isn't going to change on this rubbish. But the rest of the editorial team need to take a good long look at this and decide which side of common decency they want to be on. Back in my days as an editor I certainly wouldn't let the immature prejudice of one of my team blight the rest of the our websites - both for reasons of decency and commercial considerations.
Whilst I don't think this should turn into a political discussion, I did wince a little at Steve's comments.... but more in expectation of a prickly political reaction than any feeling of prejudice.

It is probably best to avoid commentary on this topic at the moment. That's the only error here.
 

Roohster

Distinguished Member
Good to hear the HDR10 vs DV debacle being discussed in detail, it's such a mess.

As with previous format wars, whichever format "wins" is probably going to be down to price and availability rather than technical superiority.

Also... ever noticed that it's the technology with the coolest name that wins out?
Betamax/VHS, HD-DVD/BluRay etc :p
 
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TJP75

Member
Thanks for another excellent podcast gents.

As for the gender debate; I agree with both @Grumpyrocker and @Steve Withers and marked your comments with an agree tick.

Whilst I don't believe The Last Jedi was ruined by a feminist agenda, I do agree Steve has the right to his opinion.

Perhaps the podcast can refrain from gender discussions? I'm here to listen to home theatre, hi-fi and movie news and reviews and general ramblings; I cannot be the only one who thinks this.

And @Mark Botwright - bring back the gaming podcast! :thumbsup:
 
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Steve Withers

Reviewer
I think my comments in the podcast have been taken slightly out of context because I was referring to a specific film rather than the industry as a whole. Do I believe that women should be treated equally? Yes. Do I believe women should be paid the same as men? Of course. Do I believe that women (and men) should be free from sexual harassment of any kind. Absolutely. Do I think The Last Jedi is a bad film and that one of its many flaws is an unnecessary gender bias? Damn right I do but that doesn't make me Harvey Weinstein and I resent the personal attacks and accusations being thrown at me by certain people.
 

invisiblekid

Distinguished Member
Good chat about HDR10+ vs DV. Do the guys think their has to be a winner? I guess since it’s doubtful a TV will support both there might has to be? It not like the early days of Dolby True HD and DTSMA. Since (I think) equipment supported both and you just bought the disc and you could play whatever it came with.

Whatever the situation the “same” TV supporting DV or HDR10+ depending on where you live is crazy since the disc you by won’t have both. Or very unlikely at best. That imo is crazy.

The Dolby cinema is largely irrelevant for us U.K. people but I’m not sure knowing the person sitting next to me in the couples seats (which you get in some screens of my Showcase cinema) would feel comfortable at me (or Steve) having a tingling sensation in their balls with the big bass moments!

As for TLJ well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I get Phil’s anger at Luke this time and I get why they did it, and other things. They are moving it into the mass market. Mark got it right in that making a good Star Wars film is far too difficult and I think Disney simply don’t care about the last few die hard fans. If they never go to another Star Wars film, Disney won’t notice.

I’m not a die hard fan however Lucas’ re-edits of the original trilogy had me gringing to my core. I love the original cuts but I’m not attached to them via my DNA like you guys. This shift in the new films though, despite Disney acquiring FOX video means I don’t think we will ever see the original cuts of 4,5,6 again.

I didn’t hear much praise for the good stuff in TLJ that Phil said there was, but I wasnt expecting any either and Steve clear though it was all bobbins from frame one.

As for Steve’s comments? Hmm not sure. The apparent feeling of being tired of the “me too” movement is premature at most. And a bit too angry, but not to the point I was insulted by them.

Edit

He is right though, the men in this one film do not come off well. Probably Fin is the only one not to be a complete douche. Even Chewie got shouted at, and crumbled like he never normally would
 
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casjen

Active Member
The me too campaign like so many short lived "trendy things to do " started off as a worthwhile thing but like all the rest has descended into so called celebs from a- z jumping on it for there own self serving purposes. Its all down to social media allowing people to make instant ill advised comments which generally come back to haunt them. Also more often than not its the same media taking things out of context to feed a clicking frenzy for whichever platform they are on. Real problems get lost amongst the " 15 mins of fame " wannabies. The film in question has its gud and bad points but true star wars belongs in the past and new ones should be viewed as a completely different franchise IMO
 

moedeeb

Active Member
I logged on to the forum to correct a slight error on Steve’s part. The star of shape of water is Sally Hawkins not whatever Steve said. Anyway the comments seem to have gone a bit silly re gender bias and fairness towards women etc. As a man who has always cared about equality I can do without my favourite AV site getting into trolling and comments that start getting personal. I don’t know Steve except from what he writes on here and says on the podcast. He seems to often be the but of Jokes and always takes it without getting offended or upset and he is not alone in thinking that things can go too far in the current climate. If all you want is discussion of couloir gamut’s and pci coverage go to AVS forums in the US. I like the podcast as it is and Steve is a big part of making it what it is.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I logged on to the forum to correct a slight error on Steve’s part. The star of shape of water is Sally Hawkins not whatever Steve said.
You're quite right Moedeeb (is that a Dune reference?) I accidentally said Sally Hardwick when I obviously meant the hugely talented Sally Hawkins.
 

Jek99

Active Member
"I'm all for equal opportunities". No Steve it's clear you're not. You really should steer clear of gender issues. At best you sound like Alan Partridge, at worse like an MRA/Redpiller.

You would think AVForums would be welcoming to all. But Steve's continued problems with the female gender blight what should be an enjoyable tech podcast. And continue to make it sound like AVForums is only interested in an audience of one half of the population.

Women in the movie industry are finally able to tell the truth. Fight back against the abuse done to them. And Steve's opinion is "maybe it's going too far". This is a garbage hot take.

Despite the nonsense Steve posted before Christmas about Star Wars being ruined by a "feminist agenda" I was prepared to see this as a blip and give AVForums another go. But no, he's at it again and I deleted the podcast a few minutes in.

Clearly Steve isn't going to change on this rubbish. But the rest of the editorial team need to take a good long look at this and decide which side of common decency they want to be on. Back in my days as an editor I certainly wouldn't let the immature prejudice of one of my team blight the rest of the our websites - both for reasons of decency and commercial considerations.
This diatribe is total cobblers, if anything the podcast was very mild considering the naked misandry in the last Jedi. The female characters in the last jedi (except Rey) were poorly written and one dimensional (the treatment of Phasma was truly dreadful). You can call me any names you like for disagreeing with you, but trying to be right on doesn't make you right. We need well written, rounded characters of all genders and Steve is perfectly within his rights to criticise female characters as well as male.
 
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Jek99

Active Member
Thanks for another great podcast guys, thanks for giving honest opinions.
 

Jek99

Active Member
Apologies to anyone who doesn't like political posts, but to avoid any confusion, sexual violence is an evil that must be fought wherever it is found, the inequalities of pay and opportunities for women are also grossly unfair and again must be fought. It has to be ok however to criticise poor writing and poor character development without fear of being pilloried.
 

Trojan

Distinguished Member
Never mind equality, I haven’t seen The Last Jedi yet so I’m losing out on around 33 minutes of a podcast that I waited a full week for. Now that’s something to get angry about ;)
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
Not a massive SW fan by any means, watched the trilogy dozens of times as a kid and have just introduced my 3 1/2 year old to it, he seems obsessed already.
Enjoyed Disney’s first two offerings and thought this one was just about alright, the humour was bad though, could not believe the engaged line thing at the start, completely brought me out of it.
If it annoyed me, I can imagine proper fans will be gutted.
Still, least it looked gorgeous.
Will be interesting to hear my sons opinion once he’s old enough to watch it. Will he still enjoy it as a youngster, are we getting too old? Interesting question posed in the pod.
 

Garioch

Well-known Member
That was a fascinating insight into Dolby Cinema; I'm glad that you managed to go. Your description made it sound like a worthwhile experience. $14 seems good... the 4DX here is over £17 (2K projection, no Atmos... make of that what you will). Thanks for that!

Regarding the DV vs HDR10+ "debacle", my thoughts are as follows:

I'm no way near as upset as several of the forum members here, although I can understand why AV enthusiasts are unhappy (as Phil has repeatedly mentioned, it's a tick box exercise - everyone wants an option that does everything). But then, I am not as technically astute as the forum members and have a somewhat more relaxed criteria on what I consider a good image. Given a semi-decent modern TV (which is correctly set up or calibrated) and source material, I think that council HDR can look stunning.

I'm also not sure about calling it a format war because:

1. There is an HDR-10 base layer, so consumers will always have standard HDR as a minimum.
2. People are assuming that one of these formats is going to "win." After the prototypes showcased at CES (i.e. brighter images, 1:1 tone mapping etc), what if the future is a scenario where neither HDR10+ nor Dolby Vision are required?

As mentioned several times by Phil and Steve, dynamic metadata is beneficial for lower quality sets. So as TV technology improves, I would not be surprised if they wean off their "dependency" on dynamic metadata.

But that's just it - all of the above is hypothetical, as I can't say for definite what future CES's will bring. All I know is that today, hear and now, we have superb sets that can deliver stunning images (at least to my eyes) regardless of whether they are HDR-10 only, DV or HDR-10+ (when it surfaces).

Just as I've accepted that a PS4 won't play X-Box games, I've accepted that there (probably) won't be a single TV that does all HDR formats. Personally, I'm ok with it (but I do sympathise with those who want consistency).

Ask me again though, when I buy a 4K TV and pick the wrong side!

Thanks for your great work guys - love the podcast.
 

invisiblekid

Distinguished Member
Not saying it's the best film anyway, but the Honest Trailers for Return of The Jedi really show how poor that film was.

I saw plenty of things in this that annoyed me way more than anything in Last Jedi....apart from Leia Poppins

 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
What are MRAs?
 

Toon Army

Well-known Member
Thanks Gents for an interesting podcast. Surprised the Guardian has not chipped in as well. I will keep out of that debate and just say we are all entitled to express our opinions, whether or not others agree with them. It's called freedom of speech and democracy.
With regards to the DV ( full fat and light versions ) v HDR10+ debate, this is gearing up for quite a mess in the coming year(s) and needs to be resolved in the interest of all parties. It would appear that chipsets and processing power are key aspects in what screens can deliver and could future reviews include a benchmark comparison rating?
Still can't get the image out of my mind of Phil and Steve sitting together on a couples seat in a DV cinema sharing a big box of popcorn whilst watching the next Star Wars film.
 

LicensedTaximan

Well-known Member
.... I don’t know Steve except from what he writes on here and says on the podcast. He seems to often be the butt of Jokes and always takes it without getting offended or upset and he is not alone in thinking that things can go too far in the current climate. I like the podcast as it is and Steve is a big part of making it what it is.
Given the above (of which I agree with) I present you with the following....

upload_2018-1-30_10-36-53.jpeg
Separated at birth? Count "W" and Megamind!!!!
upload_2018-1-30_10-37-53.jpeg

upload_2018-1-30_10-41-2.jpeg
upload_2018-1-30_10-41-29.jpeg
 
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