Thanks to everyone involved from Philips, Bowers and Wilkins and Dolby in organising tonight's session. This was quite simply the best AV event that I have ever been to - a really unique experience.
This evening was split into multiple different sessions - covering Philips' picture quality, Bowers and Wilkins' sound quality, Dolby cinema's picture and sound quality and getting to see a professional grading display. (The evening was also a chance to meet AV Forums' very own Phil Hinton.)
Part 1 - Danny Tack Demoing Philips Picture Processing
Danny is Philips’ picture processing guru and he has a strong view on how the right picture processing can improve upon a calibrated image.
To demonstrate this, he had two Philips TVs set up next to one another. One was showing a calibrated image in Movie mode, while the other was using Philips P5 Gen 3 picture processing, using Vivid mode.
Multiple clips were shown - all in SDR. It is fair to say that the additional processing had some significant advantages as well as some aspects that were more divisive. Firstly, the processing was great in eliminating what otherwise would be terrible judder. (Some of the scenes were deliberately shot with fast vertical and horizontal panning, to highlight just how bad judder can be.) The processing was also good at reducing image noise – for example in a plain blue sky.
Vivid mode also added quite a lot of additional sharpening without adding much in the way of negative artefacts. I have to admit that I like a slightly sharpened image – though not everyone feels that way.
The other main changes that the processing made were to increase saturation and contrast.
Basically SDR content is graded to a low level of brightness (around 100 nits) and a limited colour gamut, rec709. These standards matched the capabilities of displays in the past. Modern displays though are capable of so much more than this - a typical OLED can reach around 700 nits and can produce a much broader range of colours than rec709 includes. So the Philips processing is aiming to enhance the SDR image by making it more like an HDR image. The brightness range that was 0 to 100 nits is essentially expanded to something closer to 0 to 700 nits. Additionally, the colour space is expanded to something closer to the full gamut the TV can support - by what generally appeared to be increasing the saturation.
The result is an image that has more contrast and stronger colours. Personally I liked the effect on the contrast but found the effect on the colours too much - everything looked oversaturated.
For me and I think many other attendees, the colours looked much better when they were turned down a bit - so that there was a bit more vibrance than the plainer looking calibrated image but without making everything too garish and unrealistic.
There is definitely a reasonable argument for picture enhancements being applied to SDR images. (Which lets face it is still the majority of viewing for most people.)
If our displays are capable of so much more than the SDR standard, is it really a good idea to stick only to a fully calibrated SDR image? If I edit a photo I virtually always enhance it by increasing the contrast and sharpness – so why not do the same for video images?
If Danny or someone else from Philips is reading this then I suggest that you could get a more positive response from AV purists if you rename Vivid to something like "Cinema Plus" or "Cinema Enhanced". The term Vivid mode has such a bad reputation. Or alternatively leave Vivid mode as it is and add a new "Cinema Plus" or "Cinema Enhanced" mode that is basically Vivid with the saturation turned down a bit.
Part 1b - Introducing an LCD into the mix.
Then Danny switched to including a third screen - an 8k Samsung Q950R. The clips were shown again and basically showed that Philips Vivid mode is hands down better than Samsung's Dynamic mode - which tended to crush blacks and blow out bright highlights. Personally, I am not sure how important this is, as I would simply never use Dynamic mode on a Samsung TV as it is so garish.
It was worth noting that the Samsung struggled to smooth out some of the fastest panning shots and ended up appearing to drop frames. Now this could be because the Philips P5 processor is better than the one in the Samsung, or it could be that the Samsung struggles because being 8k, it has 4 times as many pixels to process.
Some additional scenes were shown to highlight the advantage of a self-emissive OLED against a backlit LCD. These scenes were deliberately chosen to be torture tests for an LCD, even one with Full Array Local Dimming (FALD).
First off was the OLED forte of fireworks shots. These shots basically have a screen that is 95 black with some very bright highlights. The bright highlights on the LCD were nowhere near as bright as those on the OLED. This is pretty much expected as FALD sets dim their backlights when the average picture brightness across the whole screen is so low and the highlight areas are so small.
There was additionally a movie sample with some very dim scenes. When the average brightness in the scene was really low the LCD would end up dimming its backlights and lose almost all detail whereas the OLED would maintain the dimly lit details. (Samsung does appear to be a bit too zealous in its backlight dimming in such scenes.)
However, to me as I knew these scenes were deliberately chosen to make an OLED look good/an LCD look bad, I was impressed at how well the LCD did. In dark scenes that were just dark rather than really, really dark, the LCD held its own against the OLED and maintained similar detail. I also noticed that that the LCD’s higher peak brightness meant that it had whiter whites – especially when a large part of the scene was bright. This may have been because the OLEDs brightness limiter was kicking in. A typical OLED can get up to 700 nits when displaying a small white square on a black screen. However, as that white square gets bigger the peak brightness drops. If the white square fills the whole screen then the brightness will drop to something like 150 nits. LCDs tend to be able to maintain brightness much better large full field bright areas.
The Samsung also scored well in two other areas. Firstly, for an LCD it had very good viewing angles. Secondly, Samsung have the best anti reflective screen of any TV. Whereas the OLEDs really reflected the lights in the room, the Samsung was great at suppressing reflections.
Part 2 – Bowers & Wilkins Demo
Andy Kerr from Bowers and Wilkins gave a demo of the sound system on the OLED+984. (You may remember Andy as a very interesting guest on an AV Forums pod cast a few weeks ago.)
In summary, it was the best sound that I have ever heard from any TV. There was great clarity, what seemed like good stereo separation and good levels of power.
Now this is a high-end TV sound system with a high end price tag. This system is ideal for a well heeled buyer who wants great sound in a simple and elegant package.
The 984 has a list price of £4.5k which is around £1.5k to £2k more than a standard 65” OLED with no special sound system. Personally, I struggle, with the concept of spending so much extra on a TV for improved sound. This is simply because for me my sound system gets replaced far less frequently than my TV. I would hate to have to throw away that extra investment a few years down the line when I upgraded my TV.
However, I really liked what Bowers and Wilkins had achieved and I hope that they can take what they have learned from the 984 sound system and release something similar as a separate sound bar.
Part 3 - Dolby Cinema Demonstration
To me this was the most exciting part of the evening - a chance to experience one of the best cinema screens in the world. There are only four Dolby screening rooms in the wold and this is the only one outside of the US. According to someone I spoke to from Dolby, the experience at this one may be the best of all because of the relatively small size of the auditorium compared to the screen.
We watched the new Star Wars trailer, a clip from a Star is Born and a scene commissioned by Philips for IFA.
And just 'Wow'!
I have never seen a cinema image as good as this. Completely black blacks and bright saturated colours with fantastic detail. The sound was spine tinglingly good with a perfect balance of power, location and clarity. This is what cinema should be!
Please, if someone from Dolby is reading this, then just name your price for watching the next Star Wars movie at this cinema (e.g. a kidney) and I will be there.
I do think that Dolby should do more to publicise the advantage of Dolby cinema to the general public. Perhaps they should have more events like this where members of the public are brought in to see demo material at the Dolby screening room in Soho and then released to evangelise about it on-line. I know that I am now a Dolby cinema convert.
Part 4 - Dolby Grading Room and Comparing a Pro Monitor with a Philips OLED
We then got to see the Dolby grading room, where they add the Dolby Vision dynamic meta data to the master of a movie. This was where they have graded the Harry Potter movies among others.
We also got to see a professional calibrated 4,000 nit display (an LCD) and compare it to a Philips OLED. This professional display would cost £10s of thousands compared to about £2k for the Philips OLED.
Philips employ two different Dolby Vision modes. Dolby Vision “Dark” and Dolby Vision “Light”. The Dark version follows exactly what Dolby specify and should match as close as it can what you would see on the professional display. The Light mode is there to address some concerns that HDR encoded content can sometimes appear to be a bit too dark, especially in a room with the lights on.
We saw the same Philips made IFA clip as we saw in the cinema. This was deliberately shot to highlight the advantages of Dolby Vision HDR. So this material has strong contrasts – scenes with details in dark areas as well as areas with very high brightness - and some strong colours – a dancer in a vivid red dress. This material is mastered to 4,000 nits.
First, we watched the demo in Dark mode. The Philips acquitted itself very well against the professional monitor. You could see the advantage of the extra nits (4,000 vs about 7,00) in the highlights but unless you had a professional monitor sitting next to it you would not have any complaints with the quality of the Philips picture. To me it really showed that while there is an advantage to having extra nits (in this case 6 times as many) the difference is not that dramatic. There is no reason to hold off of buying an OLED because it can “only” display 700 nits – that 700 nits is enough.
We then watched the same scene in Philips Dolby Vision Light mode. This clearly showed more detail in dark areas compared to the professional monitor - but it appeared to do this by boosting the brightness of the low to mid tones. This showed extra detail but at the expense of a loss of overall contrast. I personally preferred the Dark mode.
We then watched a concert scene with very challenging lighting. Generally, the scene was dark but with very bright coloured flashes. This was again shown in the Light mode. However, in this case the Philips matched the professional display very well. There was no noticeable brightening of mid-tones that reduced contrast this time. Perhaps this was because
The Finale
There was a brief wrap up and the evening ended with one of the 27 AV Forum members having their name selected to win a Philips 65” OLED. All I remember was that the winner was not me. This was my 4th time watching some other AV Forums member win a TV - and I have to say that the experience just gets better every time.
Overall this was a fantastic evening and thanks again to everyone involved in setting this up.
Since our friend here gave us the most accurate transcript of the event, i will focus on sharing my half-sober thoughts. I will try to keep it short and follow same structure:
Part 1 - Philips Picture Processing & LCD demo
_ That P5 second generation is simply incredible in how it cleans the picture. Philips really refined the process. Extremely useful to handle poor to average sources especially streamed. SD or HD
_ Color were too saturated but Danny kindly demonstrated that we can have a superb natural picture with superb colours, just don't call it VIVID PLEASE (try Master, P5 enhanced,..)
_ The philips motion is simply the best i have seen period. I agree with Vincent and many others.
_ the samsung LCD was struggling in dark scenes but it was probably not in the right mode full stop. We also didn't see in bright scenes...I think the comparison of Oled vs Led was done to death.
Personally, the pixel control of Oled wins until something better comes (mini or micro led,dual lcd,...) or oled itself takes another leap (never say never).
Part 2 – Bowers & Wilkins Demo
- Superb sound coming from the speakers and ideal for people like me as we don't want a full surround system. Really nice separation and a joy to listen to music only at home...
_ they need to look at adding satellites & mini sub...and doing separate soundbars (in planning).
_ little brother oled with smaller soundbar was there but could not hear it. Could be sweet spot as per phil review in here. Check it out.
Part 3 - Dolby Cinema Demonstration
_ What can i say....i still didn't recover from that. the lady gaga scene was the most cinematic and audio experience i ever had...i just felt i was there (i wish...).
_ Star wars demo picture wasn't right; Sound was awesome but picture wasn't as sharp. I wonder if same resolution as lady gaga extract.
_ i am a DV convert but they have to set a cinema in a more convenient (and cheap) place than Leicester square...lucky members in the North as i believe the locations have better acoustic.
_ Dolby should set up more demos for general public. This will guarantee a buzz. Something the marketeer/PR have to think about. i have no kidney left but i can sell something else...perhaos they should partner with disney in the star wars attraction
Part 4 - Dolby Grading Room and Comparing a Pro Monitor with a Philips OLED
- WOW WOW WOW...you have to see this if you are in this forum, i don't care if you have to drive 6H and sleep in your car...it was something to see how it works and that Pulsar in action.
_ Lets be clear, that Pulsar LCD gave me the most astonishing picture i have ever seen. It was like a mirror in another world. It was just perfect and the 4000 nits in the tank gave a depth to the colours i can hardly explain. The light pouring from the window was unreal...
- a forum friend mentioned 90 percent close. For me it was 75 and this is already incredible considering the differences full stop. Oled clawed back with pixel control and it was even closer in dark scenes...
- whatever close it was (really nice to see), i have seen the future and what i want to see...a bit what many reviewers described when they have seen the 4000 and 10000 nits screens (John archer); Window to the outside world literally.
Part 5 - Final thoughts
- This event is a must Do for any enthusiast. I hope it can become a regular feature as really worth it.
- The Philips TVs improved. They are now a viable alternative to pana (i have one) and LG especially with sound, ambilight and motion/top processing. i can also add sony in the mix.
- I agree with Phil that LG C9 is best overall package in 2019. seems weird when philips and pana took 3 awards each but LG still gives the complete and future proof package without many compromises. Price needs to be right too.
- What Pana and Philips needs to do to take that crown back ( Very easy for both if LG doesn't step it up next year). Pana to change OS (get samsung one) and HDMI 2.1. Philips to add HDMI 2.1 and focus more on accuracy out of the box (even with their P5 enhanced or master mode).
- the big take away for me is again how lucky we are to have oled and such a picture. It is no pulsar but boy we have never been so close...
To be clear, anyone having a pana, lg, philips oled will be very very happy.
Sony has some ground to cover and their premiums plus half backed DV is not justified anymore. they can do it as just a matter of listening and adapting...remains a great brand, just lost some of us.
Merci again to Philips, Dolby, B&W plus Avforum for giving us this unique opportunity.