Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

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I just finished building my new L/R fullrange speakers, and i have overdone the bass capability a tiny bit. They way overpower my current 4x12" subwoofers. Therefore i want to try a subwooferless surround-setup.
Now its time to build the center channel, but i am not sure if they need to be quite as big as the L/R.

My question is: If subwoofer set to "none". Will the LFE-content be directed to all speakers set to Large, or just L/R? My main speakers are capable of 115db down to 30hz. Should the center channel be able to do that as well?
 
I just finished building my new L/R fullrange speakers, and i have overdone the bass capability a tiny bit. They way overpower my current 4x12" subwoofers. Therefore i want to try a subwooferless surround-setup.
Now its time to build the center channel, but i am not sure if they need to be quite as big as the L/R.

My question is: If subwoofer set to "none". Will the LFE-content be directed to all speakers set to Large, or just L/R? My main speakers are capable of 115db down to 30hz. Should the center channel be able to do that as well?

In setups that lack a sub then the front left and right speakers cannot be set as being SMALL. The LFE channel if present is directed to the left and the right speakers as are all frequencies at and below the crossover settings associated with other speakers present that are designated as being SMALL.

30Hz is not full range and you'd still need a sub even if your speakers can handle frequencies as low as this. There are also other reasons to include a sub and redirect low frequencies away from speakers even if they can be considered as being full range. You are decreasing the upper frequency response associated with you speakers by using them to handle lower frequencies.

The LFE channel associated with film and movie content can go down below 10Hz and even speakers costing tens of thousands cannot deal with such low frequencies. 30Hz isn't even low enough to be considered as being full tange. The recognised audible frequency range for humans is 20 - 20,000Hz and this range is what is considered full range.

Don't waste your time and money trying to build full range speakers and simply invest the time and money into buying a bigger and or better sub.
 
Using the preouts on the amplifier and audacity i was able to measure the bass management on different settings. When sub is set to none, and all speakers full range, the LFE content is being lowered by 6 db and sent to the left and right channel, which in turn will be summed back up to normal level. So no content or dynamics is being lost.

With a -3db point at 25Hz at reference level i don't think i am missing out a lot compared to the vast majority of cinemas. And if the mains can handle it without distorting or compressing then why not? The uniform bass output from having 2 18" handle 25-250hz sounds absolutely awesome.

edit: I should have specified that the speakers are a WMTM active xo 3-way. So higher frequencies won't be affected by letting the speaker deal with low frequencies.
 
By using the receiver's inbuilt amplification to power the drive units outputting the lower frequencies you are reducing the dynamic range of the speakers in relation to upper frequencies. The lower frequency drive units require considerably more power than the upper frequency units so by amplifying the lower frequency via the receiver you reduce the headroom associated with the upper frequencies.

If the speakers in question includ their own integral amplification and are active then this effect would be negated, but only if the integral amplification isn't shared between the high, mid and low frequency drive units. The inbuilt amplification would need to be solely associated with the low frequency drive units to avoid the low frequencies sapping power that could reduce the speakers' headroom in associated with higher frequencies.
 
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All drivers are being actively xo'ed and powered by their own channel. 650W for the bass, 100W for the mids and 60W for the tweeters.

When i measured each discrete channel it was apparent the even the center gets loads of sub 30hz bass content. So i agree that one should take great care when setting a speaker as large, most speakers won't handle it.
 
Maybe have them move the sub around the room while you sit and watch :)
Just to say a massive thanks for the advice, I've moved the sub and it's like having a whole new system it's incredible! Who'd have thought?!
Even something as basic as the opening scene in Stranger Things, I hadn't realised there was a bass "heartbeat" there - makes the scene a lot more menacing! I'm looking forward to rewatching a lot of films now...!!!
Thanks again guys!
 
I have dali zensor 3 fronts.
Svs pb1000 sub.
Onkyo rz800


I run accueq.
Auto config leads me to zensor as 50hz crossover.
.
Is this ideal? Would not damage my zensor 3?
Ive read here that 80hz is the ideal crossover setting for bookshelves
 
I have dali zensor 3 fronts.
Svs pb1000 sub.
Onkyo rz800


I run accueq.
Auto config leads me to zensor as 50hz crossover.
.
Is this ideal? Would not damage my zensor 3?
Ive read here that 80hz is the ideal crossover setting for bookshelves


I'd suggest you set your speakers as being SMALL and increasing the crossovers associated with them to 80Hz.
 
Hi bro, so i will change them and not rely on accueq?


It isn't really an issue with AccuEQ. THe calibration simply sampled the roll off associated with the speakers during the test tone output and this resulted in the crossover settings the calibration arrived at. It is usually advised you override any auto bass management configurations after an auto calibration and this will not effect the room EQ adjustments.
 
It isn't really an issue with AccuEQ. THe calibration simply sampled the roll off associated with the speakers during the test tone output and this resulted in the crossover settings the calibration arrived at. It is usually advised you override any auto bass management configurations after an auto calibration and this will not effect the room EQ adjustments.

Tried changing to 80 but i like the output when it is set to 50..
Should i retain the 50hz? Any negative effect?
 
Tried changing to 80 but i like the output when it is set to 50..
Should i retain the 50hz? Any negative effect?

You'd be slighly reducing the speakers' headroom in relation to upper frequencies because the lower frequency drive units can draw more power than the upper frequency drive units.
 
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You'd be slighly reducing the speakers' headroom in relation to upper frequencies because the lower frequency drive units can daw more power than the upper frequency drive units.

Thank you for that point.. im changing to 80hz all channels including center and sorrounds... 150hz to atmos front heights...
 
Hello, what crossover is best for me? and pls explain why :)

Reciver: Yamaha rx-830 (crossover: 40,60,80,100,120 etc)
Front: Yamana NS 555 (35-35.000hz)
Center: Proson Reality Center 32 SA (50-32.000hz)
Surround: Yamaha NS-333 (40-35.000hz)
SUB : Yamaha yst-sw012 (20-200HZ)
 
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Hello, what crossover is best for me? and pls explain why :)

Reciver: Yamaha rx-830 (crossover: 40,60,80,100,120 etc)
Front: Yamana NS 555 (35-35.000hz)
Center: Proson Reality Center 32 SA (50-32.000hz)
Surround: Yamaha NS-333 (40-35.000hz)
SUB : Yamaha yst-sw012 (20-200HZ)


80Hz because this is the point that the human auditory system starts to localise frequencies and you are better off leaving the sub to deal with frequencies at and below this point. Low frequencies are harder to amplify and the power needed can result in the upper frequency drivers within a speaker having a lower headroom. There's no benefit to having speaker deal with these frequencies if you've a sub that can make a better job of it whilst also giveing your other speaker better headroom in relation to frequency.
 
80Hz because this is the point that the human auditory system starts to localise frequencies and you are better off leaving the sub to deal with frequencies at and below this point. Low frequencies are harder to amplify and the power needed can result in the upper frequency drivers within a speaker having a lower headroom. There's no benefit to having speaker deal with these frequencies if you've a sub that can make a better job of it whilst also giving your other speaker better headroom in relation to frequency.
Just to add a couple points to this. 80Hz is as much about speaker and subwoofer phase integration as auditory frequency localisation. You can actually run a clean subwoofer higher than 80Hz and not be able to localise the bass from it, assuming correct set up.

Running higher speaker crossovers has the advantage of taking even more strain off the amplifier and speakers, so will allow a system to run louder while staying clean, or maintain spl while keeping distortion even lower.
 
Alright, sounds reasonable. BUT if i want to disturb my neighbours less, should i lower volume on sub it self or set crossover to 60hz to rather play more low hz in my front spekerars while listen to music?
 
Alright, sounds reasonable. BUT if i want to disturb my neighbours less, should i lower volume on sub it self or set crossover to 60hz to rather play more low hz in my front spekerars while listen to music?

Neither. Leave the sub's level as is. If you want lower volume levels then turn down the master volume on the AV receiver.
 
Left and right front speaker: 50-26.500 Hz
Center speaker: 47-26.500 Hz
Subwoofer: 40 - 120 Hz

Going to use the speakers with a Denon X2300W and bypass the crossover knob on the subwoofer. What are the acceptable crossover setting ranges on these speakers? I did not understand.
 
Left and right front speaker: 50-26.500 Hz
Center speaker: 47-26.500 Hz
Subwoofer: 40 - 120 Hz

Going to use the speakers with a Denon X2300W and bypass the crossover knob on the subwoofer. What are the acceptable crossover setting ranges on these speakers? I did not understand.

It is generally suggested to set the crossover at 80Hz for speakers that are rated able to go down lower than this. I'd therefore suggest 80Hz as being a good place to start with the speakers you have.
 
It is generally suggested to set the crossover at 80Hz for speakers that are rated able to go down lower than this. I'd therefore suggest 80Hz as being a good place to start with the speakers you have.

This is on all speakers or just the subwoofer? After reading your introduction, I understand that my speakers need to be set as "small".
 
This is on all speakers or just the subwoofer? After reading your introduction, I understand that my speakers need to be set as "small".
The subwoofer has a separate setting. Set the crossover on the subwoofer itself to maximum or bypass, and set the LFE crossover for the subwoofer on the AVR to 120Hz.
 
This is on all speakers or just the subwoofer? After reading your introduction, I understand that my speakers need to be set as "small".

The filter onboard the sub is for all intense purposes surplus to requirements. If being used with an AV receiver that has its own bass management then you'd always set the sub's filter to its highest possible setting or a dedicated LFE setting in order to prevent the sub's filter interfering with the already filtered output from the receiver.

Only the audio channels associated with speakers designated SMALL will be subject to the crossover filter applied by the AV receiver. The crossovers determine at which frequency to redirect the signal away from these speakers and out to the sub. Set the crossovers to 80Hz and all frequencies at and below this will be redirected away from speakers you've defined as being small and the frequencies will be sent to the sub to deal with. If you set speakers as being LARGE or FULL RANGE then the receiver's crossover filters will not be applied to the associated channel.

Note that apart from the redirected frequencies associated with your speakers that there's also the signal associated with the LFE being sent to the sub. This Low Frequency Effects channel is the .1 you get with 5.1 and 7.1 audio. This channel is not filtered by the crossovers and includes low frequency effects below 120Hz. Some receiver's include a Low Pass filter for the LFE channel, but this should always be left set to 120Hz.
 
The filter onboard the sub is for all intense pur[oses surplus to requirements. If being used with an AV receiver that has its own bass management then you'd always set the sub's filter to its highest possible setting or a dedicated LFE setting in order to prevent the sub's filter interfering with the already filtered output from the receiver.

Only the audio channels associated with speakers designated SMALL will be subject to the crossover filter applied by the AV receiver. The crossovers determine at which frequency to redirect the signal away from these speakers and out to the sub. Set the crossovers to 80Hz and all frequencies at and below this will be redirected away from speakers you've defined as being small and the frequencies will be sent to the sub to deal with. If you set speakers as being LARGE or FULL RANGE then the receiver's crossover filters will not be applied to the associated channel.

Note that apart from the redirected frequencies associated with your speakers that there's also the signal associated with the LFE being sent to the sub. This Low Frequency Effects channel is the .1 you get with 5.1 and 7.1 audio. This channel is not filtered by the crossovers and includes low frequency effects below 120Hz. Some receiver's include a Low Pass filter for the LFE channel, but this should always be left set to 120Hz.

Awesome explanation. Think i get it now :)
 
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