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Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

exponential

Well-known Member
Ah right, I just assumed the LCR were full range (or near enough).....sorry to muddy the waters..🙁
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Ah right, I just assumed the LCR were full range (or near enough).....sorry to muddy the waters..🙁
The 7000i bundle consists of 5 sat speakers that are the same along with a sub. It is quite common for manufacturers to use the same speakers for fronts, centre and surrounds within their sat bundles. It is also quite common for these sat speakers to be heavilly dependant upon the sub for lower frequencies given the diminutive siize of the sat speakers and their drive units.
 

exponential

Well-known Member
The 7000i bundle consists of 5 sat speakers that are the same along with a sub. It is quite common for manufacturers to use the same speakers for fronts, centre and surrounds within their sat bundles. It is also quite common for these sat speakers to be heavilly dependant upon the sub for lower frequencies given the diminutive siize of the sat speakers and their drive units.
That really surprises me that. I suppose it makes sense if you're selling a "one box does all" solution.
Thanks for correcting me. 👍
 

Smiffy 2

Well-known Member
Thanks for your assistance guys. Will go with the Audyssey check later on today and see what that results in, and tweak (if necessary) from there. Thanks again. Rob
 

TitusTroy

Novice Member
I have a set of Aperion Intimus 5T speakers from 2010...I recently bought a new receiver and forgot about how I should set up the speakers/crossover...my 2 fronts are tower speakers with dual 5.25" woofers built inside...I don't have a dedicated subwoofer...I only have the 2 front towers, 2 rears and a center channel

in setup what should I set my crossover as for the fronts?...full range?...60 Hz?...80 Hz?
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
I have a set of Aperion Intimus 5T speakers from 2010...I recently bought a new receiver and forgot about how I should set up the speakers/crossover...my 2 fronts are tower speakers with dual 5.25" woofers built inside...I don't have a dedicated subwoofer...I only have the 2 front towers, 2 rears and a center channel

in setup what should I set my crossover as for the fronts?...full range?...60 Hz?...80 Hz?
In a setup devoid of a sub then you'd not be given the option of setting the 2 front speakers as being anything but LARGE and you'd also not be able to set a crossover for speakers not set as being SMALL. In the presence of a sub, a crossover redirects frequencies at and below its setting out to the sub so where would such a crossover be sending such frequencies if there isn't a sub present? In setups that do not have a sub, the front speakers are automatically assigned as being FULL RANGE (LARGE) and cannot use a crossover setting. Other speakers in the setup can still however be set as being SMALL and their crossovers will redirect frequencies at and below that setting away from those speakers and send them to the front speakers.

Note that your front speakers are not full range and you'd be advised to add a sub to portray the frequencies that those speakers cannot.
 

TitusTroy

Novice Member
In a setup devoid of a sub then you'd not be given the option of setting the 2 front speakers as being anything but LARGE and you'd also not be able to set a crossover for speakers not set as being SMALL. In the presence of a sub, a crossover redirects frequencies at and below its setting out to the sub so where would such a crossover be sending such frequencies if there isn't a sub present? In setups that do not have a sub, the front speakers are automatically assigned as being FULL RANGE (LARGE) and cannot use a crossover setting. Other speakers in the setup can still however be set as being SMALL and their crossovers will redirect frequencies at and below that setting away from those speakers and send them to the front speakers.
thanks...in the absence of a subwoofer is there any harm in setting the rear and center speakers also as Large?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It depends upon their abilities? If the front 2 speakers are considerable better relative to handling lower frequencies then it may still be advantageouse to redirect frequencies at and below the lowest rated ability of the other speakers to the front speakers for them to handle and portray. This would however put more strain on the receiver's front amplification modules and maybe even reduce the upper frequency headroom associated with the front left and right speakers? Best option would be to add an active sub.
 

TitusTroy

Novice Member
I recently bought a Denon X1500H...when running the initial Setup + Audysset XT it set my Crossovers as:

Front: Full Band
Center: 80hz
Surround: 60hz

I have a 5.1 setup but am not currently using a subwoofer...my 2 fronts are Towers (not bookshelfs)...is this the optimal configuration or should I manually change the Center/Surrounds?...there is no option for Full Band, Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options are from 40Hz to 120Hz

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I recently bought a Denon X1500H...when running the initial Setup + Audysset XT it set my Crossovers as:

Front: Full Band
Center: 80hz
Surround: 60hz

I have a 5.1 setup but am not currently using a subwoofer...my 2 fronts are Towers (not bookshelfs)...is this the optimal configuration or should I manually change the Center/Surrounds?...there is no option for Full Band, Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options are from 40Hz to 120Hz

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz
Go to the manual adjustment, select speaker config. Select small and set your crossover to 80hz.

 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I recently bought a Denon X1500H...when running the initial Setup + Audysset XT it set my Crossovers as:

Front: Full Band
Center: 80hz
Surround: 60hz

I have a 5.1 setup but am not currently using a subwoofer...my 2 fronts are Towers (not bookshelfs)...is this the optimal configuration or should I manually change the Center/Surrounds?...there is no option for Full Band, Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options are from 40Hz to 120Hz

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz

Go to the manual adjustment, select speaker config. Select small and set your crossover to 80hz.


He doesn't currently have a sub wihin his setup and cannot therefore designate the front left and right speakers as being anything but LARGE. Any of the other speakers designated as being SMALL will simply redirect their frequencies at and below their crossover settings to the front left and right speakers as opposed to redirecting them to a subwoofer.
 

TitusTroy

Novice Member
He doesn't currently have a sub wihin his setup and cannot therefore designate the front left and right speakers as being anything but LARGE. Any of the other speakers designated as being SMALL will simply redirect their frequencies at and below their crossover settings to the front left and right speakers as opposed to redirecting them to a subwoofer.
so the optimal configuration for my setup would be the following?
Fronts: Large
Center: Small
Surrounds: Small

and then set the Crossovers as
Fronts: Full Band
Center: 80Hz
Surrounds: 80Hz
 

gibbsy

Moderator
He doesn't currently have a sub wihin his setup and cannot therefore designate the front left and right speakers as being anything but LARGE. Any of the other speakers designated as being SMALL will simply redirect their frequencies at and below their crossover settings to the front left and right speakers as opposed to redirecting them to a subwoofer.
Reading too quickly. I currently have a 5.1 set up...…..:confused:
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
so the optimal configuration for my setup would be the following?
Fronts: Large
Center: Small
Surrounds: Small

and then set the Crossovers as
Fronts: Full Band
Center: 80Hz
Surrounds: 80Hz
Basically, yes.

Note that you are putting more strain upon the receiver's front left and right amplification by directing the lower frequencies assciated with the other channels to the front though. You should realistically considering adding an active sub to your setup in order to better portray these lower end frequencies as well as to imprive the front speakers' headroom.
 

tcb82

Standard Member
Hi Dante01

Maybe you could also help me with my setup and crossover settings?

I tried the best I could after I read your first post about how to set the crossover settings. But first, here is which speakers I own (and no – not very high-end ;) :

Subwoofer: Boston Accoustics Soundware. Sub freq. range: 50-150Hz

Fronts: Dali Oberon ON-WALL speakers( 55-26.000 Hz)
Center: Jamo center speaker (75-20,000Hz)
Rear speakers: Boston Accoustics Soundware XS SE ( 150Hz – 20.000Hz)

So, after I read your first post, I tried by myself, and came down to these crossover settings:

Fronts: 80hz
Center: 90hz
Rear speakers: 200hz

What do you think?

My receiver is Marantz SR5011.

Thanks in advance!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The crossovers you've set will work and are acceptable. I'd personally try a lower setting for the surrounds though, maybe a setting of 160Hz if you've that option available to you?
 

tcb82

Standard Member
The crossovers you've set will work and are acceptable. I'd personally try a lower setting for the surrounds though, maybe a setting of 160Hz if you've that option available to you?
I can only choose 150Hz or 200Hz, unfortunately. I can not choose a number in between.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
My next challenge is to set the Crossover dial and Volume dial in the right position on the sub. Any good advice here? :)

This should have been done prior to running the AV receiver's calibration process. You need to do things in this order:

  1. Configure the sub's own settings
  2. Run the AV receiver's calibration process
  3. Deal with and configure the AV receiver's bass management


As to the sub's own cnfiguration. Set it volume dial to about one third, set phase to 0° and set the frequency dial as high as it allows or to a dedicated LFE setting option if there is one. AS said, these settings all need to be done prior to running the calibration and should not be altered aftward unless you intend to rerun the calibration again.
 

tcb82

Standard Member
This should have been done prior to running the AV receiver's calibration process. You need to do things in this order:

  1. Configure the sub's own settings
  2. Run the AV receiver's calibration process
  3. Deal with and configure the AV receiver's bass management


As to the sub's own cnfiguration. Set it volume dial to about one third, set phase to 0° and set the frequency dial as high as it allows or to a dedicated LFE setting option if there is one. AS said, these settings all need to be done prior to running the calibration and should not be altered aftward unless you intend to rerun the calibration again.
Thank you :)
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Sooooo... should you ALWAYS select front speakers to SMALL when you have a sub?

Yes, there's no advantage associated with not doing so, especially if listening to multichannel surround soundtracks where the amplification is already stretched and where handling the lower frequencies via the front speakers or other speakers can potentially lower the upper frequency headroom of your setup.

If you've a pair of large front speakers that are well regarded in relation to their portrayal of music sources, you may prefer to disengage the sub in instances where you are portraying 2 channel audio. It should be noted that even a few higher end stereo systems are now starting to include bass management alongside subwoofer pre outs so the benefits of such an arrangement isn't being ignored by the parties associated with the development and manufacture of such setups.

You are for all intense purposes better off using the sub to portray frequencies at and below 80Hz than you'd be if using even large floorstanders. True full range speakers are larger than what most households can accomodate with woofers in excess of 13" in diameter and good full range speakers cost tens of thousands to buy. Even if you've the funds to buy these and the space to accomodate such speakers, the power needed to drive the lower end drive units will put excess strain upon the amplification and lower the upper frequencies headroom.
 
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gibbsy

Moderator
I recently did the Audyssey setup. Is that still "correct" so that I can change the front speakers to small AFTER the setup?
Yes. Just to the manual set up where you can change to small and alter the crossovers if needs be. It will not effect any other Audyssey settings.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I better get home and change the speaker settings then.

I recently did the Audyssey setup. Is that still "correct" so that I can change the front speakers to small AFTER the setup?

It isn't actually Audyssey that is responsible for the bass management. Audyssey MultEQ does measure the roll off frequency for the speakers as part of the room EQ appraisal process, but has nothing to do with determining how to interpret that relative to speaker sizes and or crossover settings. It is the receiver's manufacturer who are responsible for this aspect of the calibration. Audyssey themselves suggest/recommend speakers always be set as being SMALL and that you manually override any bass management settings that are set otherwise. Audyssey's founding members started out as employees of THX and as such they endorse THX's guidance that all speakers b set as being SMALL with a crossover no lower than 80Hz be used.



The following originates from Audyssey:
Audyssey doesn't set crossovers in any product. It finds the low frequency roll off point of your speakers and reports that to the AVR. Every manufacturer uses that information differently. In your product, speakers found to roll off below 40 Hz are set by Onkyo to Full Range (i.e. with no crossover to the sub). That means that bass will not be redirected to the sub. Audyssey recommends that if you have a sub you should set crossovers for all your speakers. I would suggest starting with 80 Hz. I wrote much more on this topic here:

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

Small vs. Large
Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.

In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.

A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.

Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.

But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.
Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.

Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.

Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large.


80 Hz is a typical recommendation. If MultEQ finds a roll off point higher than 80 Hz then don't change it. But, if any of your speakers are set to Large, then change those to 80 Hz.

Audyssey doesn't set speakers to Large or Small and most certainly doesn't set the sub to LFE+Main. These are decisions that the AVR makes. We recommend that if there is a subwoofer in the system, then all speakers should be set to Small and the sub mode should be LFE (not LFE+Main).

The LPF setting for the LFE channel should always be 120 Hz. This is not a crossover, but a filter that applies only to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content.
Crossover frequency : Ask Audyssey




You can readilly override the bass management configurations arrived at by a calibration without it having any detrimental effect upon your receiver's room EQ correction.
 
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gibbsy

Moderator
So I set all the speakers to Small. Do I set the crossover on the bass or in the OSD on my AVR or both?
You set the crossovers on the receiver, 80hz for front is the best. Leave the surrounds as calibrated. Do not drop the crossovers from that which has been calibrated it's fine to raise them. On the sub itself set the crossover to it's maximum, usually 120hz-140hz. The receiver should already have the sub set to it's maximum by default. on LPF for LFE, again usually 120hz.
 

Pretorian24

Active Member
Ok. So this is what I did.
the LPF for LFE was set at 80. I changed it to 120hz.
The front and center was set at Large so I changed to Small.
The SW Mode was set at LFE + Main so I changed to only LFE.
When I come to crossover all speakers was at 40hz and I canged ONLY Front to 80hz. Should the other speakers be left at 40hz?
On the subwoofers back I changed the crossover from 60 or 80hz to maximum 150hz.
So am I good to go?
 

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