Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

adam-burnley

Distinguished Member
You should try to include a 10Hz overlap as opposed to a hole not covered. The 10Hz overlap should give better rolloff and transition. Set the crossover higher than the speakers' lowest ability as opposed to setting it lower or you'll end up with a hole that will not be covered by either the speakers or the sub.
Thanks dante, I thought that would be best, but always worth asking!

Might be a q for one of the Anthem threads, but I see a lot of posters get the same result with different room correction systems, where it sets the crossover to less than it should be. In my case less than the speakers can actually go down to. Surely a decent room correction system, particularly the highly regarded ARC should detect the lowest frequency supported by the speakers? Or has it been confused by the BK that goes up to 120Hz?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Thanks dante, I thought that would be best, but always worth asking!

Might be a q for one of the Anthem threads, but I see a lot of posters get the same result with different room correction systems, where it sets the crossover to less than it should be. In my case less than the speakers can actually go down to. Surely a decent room correction system, particularly the highly regarded ARC should detect the lowest frequency supported by the speakers? Or has it been confused by the BK that goes up to 120Hz?

Room correction doesn't really address bass management and simply measures the roll off of the speakers which the receiver then uses to set a crossover and or speaker sizes. The crossover a receiver arrives at is based upon the roll off it measures in relation to your speakers' measured capabilities. The roll off isn't always the best indication of where you should locate the crossover point. It is left to the user to determine the best crossover configurations and room EQ correction plays no part in this.

You should never rely upon a receiver's auto calibration to determine your speaker sizes or bass management configurations.
 

AV Online

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Just to add as an FYI, as I see this point raised quite a lot.

Its worth noting that room correction doesnt really set the crossovers, rather it measures what they are in room, and while this is then set in the AVR, it has to be for the end user to see what is actually measured, and this is why all receivers do this. The technically correct crossover setting on all speakers is 80Hz (assuming a speaker is producing output down to this frequency in your room), but if your AVR automatically set speakers to this 80Hz figure, then end users would have no idea what the actual measured in room response was, as measured by that eq system in that room.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It should be noted that while it is acceptable to override any of the speaker size and crossover point settings a receiver arrives at post calibration, you shouldn't set the crossover points lower than the points that resulted from the calibration. These are what the receiver measured as being the lowest your speakers can handle (their roll off) so it is inadvisable to set the crossover at a point below this which results in frequencies being sent to those speakers which they cannot handle or portray.
 

Recall

Active Member
DRC (Dynamic Range Compression) need only be used if you are having issues hearing quieter aspects of the soundtrack at lower than reference master volume levels. It is up to you as to whether or not you utilse DRC. Most people don't enagage the basic standardised DRC, but may use more proprietary forms of DRC like Audyssey Dynamic Vole or Yamaha's Adaptive DRC. THe standardised variant is only applicable to discrete Dolby and DTS formats while the proprietary variants are applicable to all formats.

Do you have issues picking up on dialogue while listening at -25db? If so then you may want to investigate and try the various DRC options in order to make dialogue more discernible at this volume level?

If turning Loudness Control OFF then you'd be disabling all forms of DRC including the standardised DRC, proprietary variants and dialogue normalisation if you receiver has this?
Hi Dante, I recalibrated the system again with bass set at the mid point on the subwoofer. I found that it would set bass to +10.00 which was way too high for my small room. I therefore adjusted it to +3.00 and it sound so much more balanced.

In respect of the DRC, if I turn off auto DRC then I find on TV programs / streaming the voices seem to get drowned out a bit. So I have left it on. Just tweaking the bass has made a huge difference. So thanks for advice and pointers.
 

screemer

Active Member
Hi there, i need some help with my Monitor Audio Radius setup. I am running 4 R90s from fronts and surrounds and a 225 for centre with a W12 Silver sub. I did have the old RSW12 sub until it dies last week. I currently have the crossovers on my Onkyo SR875 set to 90hz for all speakers and sub. I always thought it sounded good. Now i have replaced the sub, it seems to sound different. I have tried to changed the crossovers a bit but don't really notice any massive difference. Any one any ideas? Should all crossovers be on 90hz, or should the sub be higher? I just played some demo blurry and its room shaking but i feel the mids are a bit flat. Any help greatly appreciated.
 

Harkon321

Well-known Member
Surely the sub doesn't have a crossover. The crossover is the freq the speaker crosses to the sub isnt it??
 

screemer

Active Member
I have a setting on my Onkyo to set the frequency for the sub, which is at 90, same as speakers.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Subs do not have a crossover filter. Only those speakers redirecting frequencies at and below their crossover setting send audio to the sub. The sub's own filter on its rear should be set as high as it allows or to a special LFE option if it has one? Phase should be set to 0° and the volume needs to be set to about one third begote you then run the receiver's calibration. You then need to set the crossovers for the other speaker designated as SMALL post calibration. If the receiver has a LPF of LFE setting then this should always be set to 120Hz.
 

screemer

Active Member
I read in the manual that the frequency on the sub is not used if i am plugging it in directly using the LFe input as opposed to a stereo pair?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I read in the manual that the frequency on the sub is not used if i am plugging it in directly using the LFe input as opposed to a stereo pair?
Yes, this would be the case with most sub's. It is usually suggested to set the frequency filter on a sub to its maximum though just in case that sub doesn't bypass its filer. Setting it to its max basically negates its ability to interfere with the filtering already being carried out by the receiver.
 

screemer

Active Member
SO whats the downside to having speakers and sub all set to 90hz? How would it affect the sound? What i seem to be finding with the new sub is a lack of mid range, all sounds and bit bright with a thumping bass
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
SO whats the downside to having speakers and sub all set to 90hz? How would it affect the sound? What i seem to be finding with the new sub is a lack of mid range, all sounds and bit bright with a thumping bass
There's no downside to having the speakers use a 90Hz crossover to divert frequencies and and below 90Hz to the sub, but you shouldn't filter the signal going into the sub. The ceiling for the LFE channel as used during the mixing of film soundtracks is 120Hz so if you've set the sub's own filter below this then you are discarding aspects of the LFE channel. You don'rt set the sub's own filter or a receiver's LFE LOw Pass Filter below 120Hz. In fact you should set the sub's own filter as high as it allows to accommodate speakers that may actually require a crossover setting on the receiver higher than 120Hz.
 

screemer

Active Member
SO all the time i had my old sub set to 90hz i was losing out?

Do you have any recommendations for the Monitor Audio Radius'?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
SO all the time i had my old sub set to 90hz i was losing out?

Do you have any recommendations for the Monitor Audio Radius'?
You may not have been losing out if you were using a didicated LFE input? Such inputs tend to bypass the sub's own frequency filter. It is suggested you use such an input if using the sub with an AV receiver that includes its own integral bass management.

I'd suggest you do with the Radius sub as suggest been done with any other sub. Set the sub's volume to about one third, set phase to 0° and set the frequency filter as high as it allows. If the sub has an LFE setting then use this and or the RCA input labelled LFE IN. Also turn any auto power feature off. Once these settings are configured, run the receivers calibration.

Post calibration, manually set the speaker sizes to SMALL onboard the receiver and assign the associated channels appropriate crossovers.

THe LPF of LFE filter on the receiver should always be set to 120Hz if that receiver has such a filter.
 
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screemer

Active Member
My Onkyo 875 doesn't have an option for setting the speakers to large or small
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
My Onkyo 875 doesn't have an option for setting the speakers to large or small
Giving them a crossover would be the same as designating them as being SMALL. Speakers you do not give a crossover to will be treated as being FULL RANGE which is the same as designating them LARGE.
 

screemer

Active Member
Thanks. Would any of this explain why i seem to be lacking some mid range/warmth since i changed the sub? I have just played Battlefield on my Xbox One and the soundtrack is normally thumping, guns sound meaty etc. Now, the main explosions rumble but the guns sound flatter, just less guts to the whole thing. I am confused. Thanks for all your help btw
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Even if you were discarding LFE frequencies above 80Hz then you should still have been portraying the lower down frequencies that provide sub bass. Your speakers are the elements that would still be handling the mid range frequencies above their associated crossover settings and below their rated handling abilities.
 

screemer

Active Member
I double checked my MA Radius speakers and they are rated down to 85. Presumably i should set crossovers to 90 seen as i can't select 85? What would happen to them if i set them to 80?
 
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AV Online

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I double checked my MA Radius speakers and they are rated down to 85. Presumably i should set crossovers to 90 seen as i can't select 85? What would happen to them if i set them to 80?
Not a lot but leaving them at 90 is fine. I would suspect your mid bass issues are based around your subwoofers eq setting personally. If you put it in music mode this setting usually allows the subwoofer to play louder and makes it punchier. You may also want to try re-running Audyssey, slight differences in mic placement (particularly the initial measurement) change how the system sounds.
 

narcoticsuite

Active Member
Hi,

I have a question about crossover frequencies and bass management.

I am currently using a sub-sat system in a 7.1 array, and all satellite speakers are identical with the crossover set at 120Hz.

However, I plan on upgrading the front 3 in the near future and I intend to retain the back 4 for the time being until such time as funds allow me to upgrade them as well.

What this will mean is that the front 3 speakers will have frequency response starting at 40-60Hz, whereas the satellites will have a frequency response starting at 110Hz.

I am also looking to replace my receiver, and I don’t want to have my crossover point set at the same level for all speakers. I’d like to have it at 80Hz for the front 3 and then 120Hz for the back 4.

I am wondering if there are any reasonably priced receivers out there that will allow me to set different crossover points for the different channels.

I am looking at something like the YamahaRXV681, Pioneer VSX1131 or Denon AVRX2300 , and I have looked at manuals on-line and it isn’t very clear as to if/how they would be able to do this.

Are my requirements only met by much higher priced receivers, or can I get something at a reasonable price that will cater for my needs?

Grateful for any advice.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Hi,

I have a question about crossover frequencies and bass management.

I am currently using a sub-sat system in a 7.1 array, and all satellite speakers are identical with the crossover set at 120Hz.

However, I plan on upgrading the front 3 in the near future and I intend to retain the back 4 for the time being until such time as funds allow me to upgrade them as well.

What this will mean is that the front 3 speakers will have frequency response starting at 40-60Hz, whereas the satellites will have a frequency response starting at 110Hz.

I am also looking to replace my receiver, and I don’t want to have my crossover point set at the same level for all speakers. I’d like to have it at 80Hz for the front 3 and then 120Hz for the back 4.

I am wondering if there are any reasonably priced receivers out there that will allow me to set different crossover points for the different channels.

I am looking at something like the YamahaRXV681, Pioneer VSX1131 or Denon AVRX2300 , and I have looked at manuals on-line and it isn’t very clear as to if/how they would be able to do this.

Are my requirements only met by much higher priced receivers, or can I get something at a reasonable price that will cater for my needs?

Grateful for any advice.
The Yamaha unfortunately uses a universal setting for the crossover. You'd need to look at one of the Yamaha Adventage models if wanting a Yamaha model with independent crossover setting options.

UPDATE


I may be incorrect about the RXV681 and have read elsewhere that it does indeed allow for individual crossover setting. It is apparently the lowest V model to allow this. THe lowest Advantage model would be the RVA760.
 
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AV Online

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi,

I have a question about crossover frequencies and bass management.

I am currently using a sub-sat system in a 7.1 array, and all satellite speakers are identical with the crossover set at 120Hz.

However, I plan on upgrading the front 3 in the near future and I intend to retain the back 4 for the time being until such time as funds allow me to upgrade them as well.

What this will mean is that the front 3 speakers will have frequency response starting at 40-60Hz, whereas the satellites will have a frequency response starting at 110Hz.

I am also looking to replace my receiver, and I don’t want to have my crossover point set at the same level for all speakers. I’d like to have it at 80Hz for the front 3 and then 120Hz for the back 4.

I am wondering if there are any reasonably priced receivers out there that will allow me to set different crossover points for the different channels.

I am looking at something like the YamahaRXV681, Pioneer VSX1131 or Denon AVRX2300 , and I have looked at manuals on-line and it isn’t very clear as to if/how they would be able to do this.

Are my requirements only met by much higher priced receivers, or can I get something at a reasonable price that will cater for my needs?

Grateful for any advice.
Page 193 of the manual here describes how to perform those adjustments on the Denon X2300 :smashin:

You first set speakers to small in the speaker settings, then go to the crossover settings. Id recommend the Denon personally, especially given its current price.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
UPDATE


I may be incorrect about the RXV681 and have read elsewhere that it does indeed allow for individual crossover setting. It is apparently the lowest V model to allow this. The lowest Advantage model would be the RXA760.
 
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