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Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

dante01

Distinguished Member
Just looking at the results after running Audyssey and I am not sure If something is incorrect with the front left and centre speakers as they seem to be the opposites on the graphs to the other speakers up until 100Hz? This maybe a stupid question so forgive me if it is.
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I'm not sure as to why you've posted this to a thread on the topic of bass management? Audyssey room EQ or room EQ correction in general has noting to do with bass management.

Anyway, Audyssey takes readings relative to each speaker's individual relative location within the room. The room's acoustics can vary quite considerable depending upon the locations in question and the acoustics associated with those locations. I'd suggest this to be the reason for the differing curves.
 
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markb1980

Well-known Member
Apologies. Seperate thread created.
 

ColdDayInHell

Novice Member
Hey all, I just joined because I've been lurking too long and have questions.

I just updated my Onkyo TX-NR777 and I mistakenly reset the settings.

For crossover settings, I'm not sure what I used.

Here are my speaker specs and thanks in advance, I'm so aggravated. First world problems but JFC.

Fronts

Klipsch Synergy Speaker F-1 Tower Speakers

Frequency Response: 38Hz – 23kHz +/-3dB
Power Handling: 100 w (400 w peak)
Sensitivity: 93dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Crossover Frequency: 2100Hz
Tweeter: 1” (2.5cm) aluminum dome tweeter
High Frequency Horn: 5” (12.7cm) 90×60 Tractrix Horn
Woofer: 6.5” (16.5cm), magnetically shielded woofer
Enclosure Type: Bass reflex via front-firing port

Center

Klipsch Reference R-25C

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 82Hz - 24kHz +/-3dB
LOW FREQUENCY EXTENSION: 74Hz
SENSITIVITY: 98dB @ 2.83V / 1m
POWER HANDLING: 100W Continuous/400W Peak
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 Ohms Compatible
HIGH FREQUENCY DRIVERS: 1" (2.54cm) Aluminum diaphragm compression driver mated to 90° x 90° square Tractrix® Horn
LOW FREQUENCY DRIVER: Dual 5.25" (13.3cm), copper spun magnetically shielded IMG woofers
CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 1800Hz

Surrounds

Klipsch B-2

Crossover Channel Qty 2-way
Nominal Output Power 75 Watt
Max (RMS) Output Power 300 Watt
Frequency Response 62 - 23000 Hz
Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
Sensitivity 92 dB
Crossover Frequency 2300Hz
Output Features Bass Reflex

Surround Rears

Klipsch RS10

Crossover Channel Qty 2-way
Nominal Output Power 50 Watt
Max (RMS) Output Power 200 Watt
Frequency Response 82 - 20000 Hz
Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
Sensitivity 91 dB
Crossover Frequency 2000Hz

Sub

Klipsch R-120SW

Frequency Response ± 3dB 29 to 120 Hz
Maximum Output Level 116 dB
Amplifier Type Digital
Amplifier Power RMS: 200 W
Peak: 400 W
Driver Size 12" / 30.5 cm

I have all set to 80hz (THX) except the surround rears (90hz) and sub (120hz)

Thanks again, I'm going crazy.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
@ColdDayInHell OK, forget all those specs on your speakers. What counts is what the room EQ system on the Onkyo has registered. After calibration set all your speakers to small. The ideal crossovers for the front three would be 80hz and the surrounds (I personally) set to 100hz with my KEF R Series.

Your subwoofer should have it's crossover set to it's maximum, usually in the range of 120-140hz with the phase to 0 (zero).

You do need to run the calibration again. Not being an Onkyo owner I can offer no advice on the actual detail of the calibration but I would start again as if it were a brand new installation.
 

ColdDayInHell

Novice Member
@ColdDayInHell OK, forget all those specs on your speakers. What counts is what the room EQ system on the Onkyo has registered. After calibration set all your speakers to small. The ideal crossovers for the front three would be 80hz and the surrounds (I personally) set to 100hz with my KEF R Series.

Your subwoofer should have it's crossover set to it's maximum, usually in the range of 120-140hz with the phase to 0 (zero).

You do need to run the calibration again. Not being an Onkyo owner I can offer no advice on the actual detail of the calibration but I would start again as if it were a brand new installation.
Set to 120hz and LFE on the sub itself (highest setting)

As for Onkyo's calibration, yeah, no. I see why Audyssey is so popular.

I didn't use these settings as they were way off IMO.

 

gibbsy

Moderator
Set to 120hz and LFE on the sub itself (highest setting)

As for Onkyo's calibration, yeah, no. I see why Audyssey is so popular.

I didn't use these settings as they were way off IMO.

Those figures don't surprise me. The room plays a part in the readings and my Audyssey readings with my KEF R300s recorded 40hz, now set at 80hz across the fronts. Based on those readings I would set the fronts to 80hz with both sets of surrounds at 100hz.
 

Rashman78

Active Member
I’ve just posted up a query on the speaker forum, but given the topic this thread is discussing, it may be better here..

Here is my post:

Hey all,

Need to pick your brains..

I’ve recently built an extension that has given me a new lounge area.

Room description:
Rectangular in shape, about 4m x 7m.

Level, flat, painted ceiling.

2x recessed skylights 1m x 1m each.

Concrete base, screed, hard flooring also with underfloor heating.

Adjoining room through archway, also hard flooring.


Current cinema setup:
65” LG oled.
Sony 4K BluRay player.
Pioneer SC-LX901 amp.
6x Cambridge Audio floor standers.
Cambridge Audio centre.
4x Cambridge Audio atmos ceiling speakers.
4x Cambridge Audio Minx300 subs.

I used to have all this setup in my old lounge which was about 4m x 5m and carpeted.
Bass was crazy awesome. Serious low-down, bass.

I moved the equipment into the new room recently and watched a film for the first time.
All speakers firing on all cylinders and sound great.
But, I noticed that I have lost a lot of low frequency bass for some reason.
I thought that if anything, bass would be a lot more boomy because of the hard floors.. but it seems to have gone the other way.
It seems like the hard floor is swallowing up the bass!
The subs are definitely on and working hard. Settings are the same as I had them previously.

I’ve noticed the new room is a lot more echoey so I will need to add a fair bit of soft furnishings.

But why am I losing so much bass?

Any ideas?
 

Pug72

Well-known Member
I'm thinking of adding a sub (Dali E9f) to my set up consisting of:

Denon x2200w receiver.
Dali Zensor Vokal.
Dali Zensor 5 mains.
Dali Zensor 1 rears.
Dali Alteco C1 upfiring Atmos.

What would be the correct crossover and sub rear controls settings?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I'm thinking of adding a sub (Dali E9f) to my set up consisting of:

Denon x2200w receiver.
Dali Zensor Vokal.
Dali Zensor 5 mains.
Dali Zensor 1 rears.
Dali Alteco C1 upfiring Atmos.

What would be the correct crossover and sub rear controls settings?
You don't have to match the sub to your speakers. Very often third party subs can be far more value and better quality than the speaker manufacturer's own version. If I were you I would look at BK subs as I'm pretty sure many of here would also recommend.

When setting up any sub you should always have the subs crossover set to it's maximum, usually 120hz, this will be found on the back of the sub. Set phase, if it has one, to zero. As a starting point for volume when running Audyssey try the 10 o'clock position. The aim to is to get as close to zero as possible with Audyssey but certainly with the -12dB to +12dB range.

After calibration set all your speakers to small and if possible set their crossovers to 80hz. However if Audyssey has set the crossover to higher than this then stick with the higher value.

Link for BK subs:

Sub Woofers - Sub Bass - Subwoofer
 

Djuganight

Active Member
I have the crossovers set to "All - 80hz" on my Denon AVR-X4500H.
My speaker configuration is as follows:
2 x QAcoustics 3050i
2 × QAcoustics 3010i
1 x QAcoustics 3090ci
Subwoofer SVS SB-2000

Seems to work really well on all inputs and with all Sound Option.
I have the Sub volume at 50% and when I ran the Audyssey test the result did marked the front speakers as Large and the crossovers individually.
I changed the speakers to Small and Crossover 80Hz, which I find to be a good middle term compromise.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You'd be advised to set the speakers as being SMALL irrespective of what the calibration resulted in. You'd also be recommended not to set the crossovers any lower than 80Hz and no lower than the rolloff detected by the AV receiver.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
Generally speaking, when setting the crossover point for Front Height speakers, are they treated in the same way as surrounds? I'm about to get a new set of speakers (Polk RTi A1 L/R, Polk CSi A4 center, and some Klipsch R-14M as my surrounds), so I will probably take this opportunity to move the Onkyo HTiB's I'm using as my surrounds right now as Front Height speakers (meant to do this 6 months ago, but got lazy) to set up a 5.1.2 arrangement. Currently, the crossover for the HTiB's is set to 150hz - my immediate assumption is to keep that crossover point the same when I move them to the Front Height position, but wanted to make sure.

Would it also be advised to set the crossover for the R-14M's lower than 150hz? I'll obviously run a calibration once they're set up, but often the numbers end up being different than the calibration's recommendation. For example, when I got the Pioneer BS22's/C22 I'm currently using, it set their crossover to 60hz, which is too low, so I put them to the commonly-suggested 80hz. I'm expecting my Onkyo's calibration to set the Klipsch's crossover to a stupidly low number.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Generally speaking, when setting the crossover point for Front Height speakers, are they treated in the same way as surrounds? I'm about to get a new set of speakers (Polk RTi A1 L/R, Polk CSi A4 center, and some Klipsch R-14M as my surrounds), so I will probably take this opportunity to move the Onkyo HTiB's I'm using as my surrounds right now as Front Height speakers (meant to do this 6 months ago, but got lazy) to set up a 5.1.2 arrangement. Currently, the crossover for the HTiB's is set to 150hz - my immediate assumption is to keep that crossover point the same when I move them to the Front Height position, but wanted to make sure.

Would it also be advised to set the crossover for the R-14M's lower than 150hz? I'll obviously run a calibration once they're set up, but often the numbers end up being different than the calibration's recommendation. For example, when I got the Pioneer BS22's/C22 I'm currently using, it set their crossover to 60hz, which is too low, so I put them to the commonly-suggested 80hz. I'm expecting my Onkyo's calibration to set the Klipsch's crossover to a stupidly low number.
Run the auto calibration. It is okay to set the crossovers of any of the speakers at or higher than where the calibration set these settings. It is not however advisable that the crossovers be set below where the AV receiver's calibration set them. There's nothing special regarding the crossovers associated with the front height speakers and they are set in the same manner as would apply to floor level and or surround speakers. You can assign speakers an 80Hz crossover as long as the receiver hadn't set the associated crossovers higher than this itself. It would not be advisable to manually override a crossover that the receiver had set higher than 80Hxz though in order to lower that setting.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
Ok, thanks! That’s what I figured. I know to not set the crossover lower than whatever the calibration dictates - my guess is I will end up doing 80 for the fronts/center, 100 or 120 for the surrounds, and I know those HTiBs will get set to 150 since that’s what they are now as the surrounds.

You are a wealth of knowledge, as always. Thanks!
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
Okay, I got my RTi A1's and CSi A4 today! Did the calibration, and all that - one thing I have noticed, though, is when I go into the set up menu to configuration, it's set the speaker impedance to 6ohms? It doesn't have an option for 8ohms, either (I only get 4 or 6ohm options). Would this be because the HTiB's I have connected are 6ohm? I should be getting my Klipsch R-14M's tomorrow, so once I do the calibration all over again may that will change... I hope. Don't know what this will do to the speakers as of right now.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Okay, I got my RTi A1's and CSi A4 today! Did the calibration, and all that - one thing I have noticed, though, is when I go into the set up menu to configuration, it's set the speaker impedance to 6ohms? It doesn't have an option for 8ohms, either (I only get 4 or 6ohm options). Would this be because the HTiB's I have connected are 6ohm? I should be getting my Klipsch R-14M's tomorrow, so once I do the calibration all over again may that will change... I hope. Don't know what this will do to the speakers as of right now.
A calibration doesn't ordinarily set the impedance and this is usually only something a user can configure. It is recommended that any impedance switching be left at its default (usually the highest option available) because it only serves to reduce the rail voltage and starve speakers of power if used and will not enhance the AV receiver audio performance. The receiver doesn't really need such switching in order to protect itself against damage because it will more than likely already include inbuilt protection circuitry that would power down the unit if its temperature exceeds acceptable operational levels.

It just sounds as though your receiver has 2 impedance options and I'd suggest that the 6ohm option was the default. It should be left at the higher default irrespective of the rated impedance of the speakers you are using.

Setting the A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch


Also note that impedance switching has nothing at all to do with bass management.
 
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orfeous

Standard Member
Suggestions for my system please.

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR818
Subwoofer Crossover: Off, 80,90,100,120Hz
Can either handle the bass management via passthrough on SUB amp
or use lowpass-filter on SUB with a range of frequencies.

Front Crossover: Fullrange, 40,50,60,70,80,90,100,120,150, 200Hz
Center Crossover: Fullrange, 40,50,60,70,80,90,100,120,150, 200Hz
Surround Crossover: Fullrange, 40,50,60,70,80,90,100,120,150, 200Hz

Calibrated with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, but i didnt like the outcome of it.
So im manually editing frequencies and distances.

Front speakers are both bi-amped on receiver and bi-wired.

Subwoofer: XTZ SUB12.17
Frequency response: 19 - 160 Hz (+/- 3dB)

Front: Yamaha NS-555
Frequency response: 35 Hz - 35 kHz

Center: Yamaha NS-C444
Frequency response: 55 Hz - 35 kHz

Surround: Cambridge Soundworks MC50 satelites
Frequency response: 150Hz - 16kHz
 
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gibbsy

Moderator
Not really the thread for this advice. I suggest you open up a thread on it's own as you are really being receiver brand and model specific.

However,
Front speakers are both bi-amped on receiver and bi-wired.
This could be the reason your system isn't sounding good. By bi-amping you are just diluting the power available to the system as a whole. Bi-wiring is just a waste of time and money. Single amp and single wire. If you wish to bi-amp then do as the name suggests and employ a second standalone amp.

Open up a new thread as your question is too complex to be answered here.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
So, I'm having some difficulty with the mass management of my current system. Right now, I have the following speakers:

Polk RTi A1's for my front LR (Frequency Response is 60Hz - 26kHz)
Polk CSi A4 as my centre (Frequency Response 65Hz - 26kHz)
Klipsch R-14M's as my LR surrounds (Frequency Response 64Hz - 24kHz)
Elac S10EQ as my subwoofer (Frequency Response 28hz - 150hz)

Currently, I have my crossover settings at 80Hz for the front LCR, 100Hz for my surrounds. LFE is set to 120Hz, and the frequency "knob" on the sub is set to its max (the sub is controlled via an app, so there isn't anything on the back of the sub apart from a cable input, and USB port).

I had done the sub crawl with my previous Polk PSW10 sub, and I thought I had it situated correctly in the room, but with this new subwoofer I am finding that occasionally my ear is able to localize the sub when certain frequencies are audible. I even redid the crawl, but that hasn't seemed to have helped. This sub is pretty much a sealed sub (it has a down-firing passive radiator) compared to the front ported PSW10. It's sort of getting to the point where the best spot for this sub might be directly in front of my listening position underneath the centre channel, but that is an impossibility.

From a bass management perspective, would it help if I lowered the crossover points of my speakers? Would it be a simple matter of reducing the volume/gain on the sub (on a 0-100, it's set to 60)? Go into my AVR Level Calibration settings (it's an Onkyo TX-NR747) and drop the trim down a few notches (right now, it got set to +2dB after my last AccuEQ calibration)? Keep doing the crawl? Or do I just live with the fact that my ear is just going to pick up where some frequencies are coming from?

EDIT:

I think I might have solved my issue. I moved my sub to the other side, and that seems to have balanced things out - there might've been some sort of reflection going on the left side? My front left speaker is practically next to another, taller bookshelf, and I think some of the bass emitted from that speaker is bouncing off of the side of that bookshelf. That coupled with the sub being on that same side might have caused an imbalance, which is probably why my ear was picking it up rather easily. Moving my sub to the right likely compensated for that, and now my ears aren't able to localize the sub.
 
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ashenfie

Well-known Member
The best place for a sub often is directly below the centre speaker, but often not a practical location. being able to locate the bass as you say is either it's being boosted by the bookshelf or the frequencies are high enough for your brain to pin point the sound.

If the bookshelf does boost sound maybe there is a null near the seating location further up setting the sound. A sound meter with all other speakers off would help here.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
The best place for a sub often is directly below the centre speaker, but often not a practical location. being able to locate the bass as you say is either it's being boosted by the bookshelf or the frequencies are high enough for your brain to pin point the sound.

If the bookshelf does boost sound maybe there is a null near the seating location further up setting the sound. A sound meter with all other speakers off would help here.
Moving the sub to the opposite side of the TV stand seems to have corrected the localization "problem" I was having.

However, now I am facing a bit of a different thing - I recently set up some new front LR speakers (they were Polk RTi A1's, now they're RTi A3's), re-ran AccuEQ, and everything seemed to measure as I expected (it determined the crossover for all of my speakers at 60Hz, which I adjusted to higher values afterwards).

Just today, I moved the sub back to the original position with the thought that maybe the more robust A3's would offset any of the reflection I was probably experiencing when I had the A1's set up. Ran AccuEQ, and I was getting some rather unusual measurements:

1st re-calibration gave me crossover values of 200Hz for my A3's (for some ungodly reason), 60Hz for the centre, 120Hz for the surrounds (they are the RTi A1's, now). That seemed not correct to me, so I immediately re-ran AccuEQ again after unplugging the mic/plugging it back in, and slightly repositioning the mic (mostly making sure it was levelled). And it gave me 60Hz for LCR and 120Hz for surrounds, which still seemed off to me because the very first set up after getting the new speakers yielded 60Hz across the board.

I moved the sub back to the other spot again after determining that I was able to still localize the sub in its original position even with the A3's, and re-ran AccuEQ. Now it seems to consistently think that my A1's are much less capable speakers than when I initially moved them to surround duty in determining a 120Hz crossover for them.

I guess the question is why AccuEQ is now doing this? Is there a problem with the jack on the AVR/wire for the mic? I know it's not usually a good idea to set the crossover lower than what's determined, but I know that the A1's are capable of going down to 60Hz (as per the specs). Is it fine to ignore AccuEQ in this case, and set the crossover to what I had when I originally moved them to their surround position?
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
Depending on the specific dimensions of the room, exact location of speakers and exact location of measuring position you can drastically different responses with only tiny changes. I don't know that room measurement system - if it is single position, then I am not even slightly surprised by your experience.

If you want to understand some of what is going on - Room modes - Wikipedia

As for positioning the sub, try in a corner - it may or may not work. Middle of any wall I often find can be weak, but again - it all 'depends'.

Another option - temporarily stick the subwoofer on the sofa where you normally suit, now crawl around the locations in the room where you might like to place the sub woofer and listen for where it sounds best (need you head where the center of the sub would be - hence crawling) - listen for good deep balanced bass that isn't one note. Then move the sub to that location and try re-measuring.

As for the speaker measurements, assuming that is a single measurement system try a bunch of measurements in various locations near where you listen until you get one that seems to have a reasonably balance sounding setup. Ignore the bottom frequencies of the speaker, just accept there will be measurement anomalies and then set them all to 80hz and don't worry about it any more (assuming they are all definitely capable down to 80Hz, if the surround are not, then set then to 100 or 120 or whatever as appropriate).

Even with multi-point measurement - I re-did it loads of times on my AVR I discovered how to influence it towards a good balanced measurement without being thrown off by a room modes while keep the original measured distance right (which matters most if you have reflection correction as well as EQ correction).

There is a so called transition frequencies in a room that depends on the dimensions, above that - speakers tend to dictate the sound. Below that, the room dimensions and shape dictate the sound. At the mid to top end room absorption and reflection start to have a bigger influence again.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
Depending on the specific dimensions of the room, exact location of speakers and exact location of measuring position you can drastically different responses with only tiny changes. I don't know that room measurement system - if it is single position, then I am not even slightly surprised by your experience.
I hadn't changed a single thing with the Polk RTi A1's from when I initially set them up as surrounds a few days ago to now. Unless I was really off with my mic positioning (and I don't believe that I was) today, I can't see why there'd be a reason why it would think that RTi A1's are much smaller speakers.

As for positioning the sub, try in a corner - it may or may not work. Middle of any wall I often find can be weak, but again - it all 'depends'.
The sub I currently have is an Elac S10EQ. It was previously a Polk PSW10. When I got the Elac, I put it in the same position as the Polk (which was actually closer to the corner) because I had done the sub crawl, and that was where I thought was an okay position. I hadn't been able to localize the sub when I was using the Polk, but could localize the Elac.

Another option - temporarily stick the subwoofer on the sofa where you normally suit, now crawl around the locations in the room where you might like to place the sub woofer and listen for where it sounds best (need you head where the center of the sub would be - hence crawling) - listen for good deep balanced bass that isn't one note. Then move the sub to that location and try re-measuring.
I had done that when I initially was able to localize the Elac - unless I am not listening for the right thing, it sounded fine when I did the crawl, but could easily localize when I put the sub into the position, and sat at my MLP.

As for the speaker measurements, assuming that is a single measurement system try a bunch of measurements in various locations near where you listen until you get one that seems to have a reasonably balance sounding setup.
With AccuEQ, you place your mic at the MLP, and then run the calibration - it takes several measurements (as far as I can tell) from that position.

Ignore the bottom frequencies of the speaker, just accept there will be measurement anomalies and then set them all to 80hz and don't worry about it any more (assuming they are all definitely capable down to 80Hz, if the surround are not, then set then to 100 or 120 or whatever as appropriate).
I don't think you can ignore the bottom frequencies of the speaker, though. AccuEQ will always set the crossover to the lowest possible point after it goes through its measurements. If I know the speaker is capable of going down to 60Hz according to its specs, and the room calibration says it's basically a HTiB speaker or one with much smaller drivers by determining a crossover at 120Hz, something is wrong somewhere.

I always ignore what AccuEQ says, and set the crossover afterwards at 80Hz for my mains. I had been setting it higher for my surrounds (I had Klipsch R-14M's until I replaced them with the Polk RTi A1's). However, when I was using my Polk RTi A1's as mains, AccuEQ always determined a 60Hz crossover (which is accurate to the specs of the speaker). When I initially set them up as surrounds, AccuEQ determined the same 60Hz crossover. Today, for whatever reason, AccuEQ is determining those same speakers to have a 120Hz crossover. I'm fairly certain that I have had the mic in the same position, too.

So do I ignore AccuEQ, and lower the crossover of the surrounds knowing the speaker is capable or keep it at 120Hz, and adhere to the "rule" of not lowering the crossover lower than what room calibration sets?

AccuEQ also seems to be having a very difficult time figuring out my Elac sub. It always seems to think it's 10-12 feet away when it's currently 6, at most, 8 in its original position. It was able to accurately figure out that info with the Polk PSW10.
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
10-12 feet away when it's currently 6
That is down to the internal processing delay. The 'distance' is not real distance. Often a sub has a considerable internal processing delay due to DSP. The distance is purely a simple representation of the time delay based upon a normalized speed of sound, so it will not correlate exactly with the measured distance. The remaining channel will general be a lot closer to measured distance.

If it thinks the sub is 6ft further away than it is, then that suggest its the total processing delay due to AVR and sub is about 6ms.
 

ziggurcat

Novice Member
That is down to the internal processing delay. The 'distance' is not real distance. Often a sub has a considerable internal processing delay due to DSP. The distance is purely a simple representation of the time delay based upon a normalized speed of sound, so it will not correlate exactly with the measured distance. The remaining channel will general be a lot closer to measured distance.

If it thinks the sub is 6ft further away than it is, then that suggest its the total processing delay due to AVR and sub is about 6ms.
Yeah, the distance the calibration measured for the other speakers is practically to the inch.

And to make things more confusing - ran another re-cal... came up as 60Hz fronts, 70Hz surrounds. Didn't change a thing, ran another re-cal after that, came up as 60Hz fronts, 120Hz surrounds.
 
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