Question Differences between Monitor Audio, B&W and KEF.

Hey....am really keen to hear your thoughts on the D7.2 and A7, i have the D7.2’s on home demo and find them a little bright & forward and lacking in mid bass, low end is fine.... i heard the A7s some time ago and found them to be really decent easy going, balanced speakers, nothing not to like about them? I know you said you’d start a new thread re your thoughts? 🙃🤔😁
 
Ah sorry about that! I’ve been pretty busy and hadn’t done much listening as had a horrible mains hum with the demo Naim Nait XS3 amp the dealer dropped off. He popped round yesterday to try and solve the issue and solve it he did! The only problem is he used a Linn LP12 to break the ground loop which now has me scrambling to find the funds to make that leap - it really is leaps and bounds better than the Project x1 and P3.

I had some time last night and with the Linn left on demo (the dealer knows what he is doing...) I sat down with the Linn/XS3/A7 combination. Really lovely balance and detail from the Linn and was grinning ear to ear. Dealer also dropped in some Linn X200 cable so swapped that out for the QED silver and the difference was significant. Hugely more balanced, less bright at the top end and so so rich through the mids. The bass timing was vastly improved and tightened up. Massive improvement to the presence of kick drums especially.

Swapped to the D7.2s and quite a stark contrast. Not in a good way. Way too bright on the top end and none of the life and natural warmth in the mids. Put Money for Nothing (SACD) on and my wife noticed how painful the high end now was at higher volume and how flat the mids were. Stuck a few other tracks on (mix of vinyl, SACD and streamed) and frankly didn’t like what I was hearing compared to the A7s. Bass was boomy and a bit muddled at times. Now I’m sure the D7.2s are fine speakers but in this set up, in my living room and to my ears the A7s are just better suited all round. Ideally what I’m looking to achieve is as close to a live music sound mix as possible at home.

The final test was to swap out the XS 3 for the Supernait 3 the dealer also left... what a guy! Threw the latest Go Go Penguin album on the LP12 racked up the volume and sat back. Wow!

I think I have my ideal combination now! Trouble is every single element is 3x what I had budgeted... guess I might have to sell some of the whisky collection. The SA20 is likely to be on the way out and I also have an almost mint Ortofon Bronze from the P3 debacle to trade in so maybe not quite such a financial hit. One thing is for sure the A7s are staying.

TLDR? The A7s are amazing and I’m going to purchase them over the D7.2s!
 
Whiskeyguy. That's good to know and thanks for taking the time to respond. I had tried the new PMC twenty5 24i's too at home which after many hrs of run in were really good, laid back but detailed and great soundstage, depth & bass but before I part with £5K looks like I now need to revisit the A7s!! I recall thinking wow when I first heard them. I've got the Rega Aethos now which is too lean for the D7.2s! A7s are much richer, balanced & warmer... And given your great endorsement gotta give them another go... I have the 24is as back up. 😊 Thanks
 
Ah sorry about that! I’ve been pretty busy and hadn’t done much listening as had a horrible mains hum with the demo Naim Nait XS3 amp the dealer dropped off. He popped round yesterday to try and solve the issue and solve it he did! The only problem is he used a Linn LP12 to break the ground loop which now has me scrambling to find the funds to make that leap - it really is leaps and bounds better than the Project x1 and P3.

I had some time last night and with the Linn left on demo (the dealer knows what he is doing...) I sat down with the Linn/XS3/A7 combination. Really lovely balance and detail from the Linn and was grinning ear to ear. Dealer also dropped in some Linn X200 cable so swapped that out for the QED silver and the difference was significant. Hugely more balanced, less bright at the top end and so so rich through the mids. The bass timing was vastly improved and tightened up. Massive improvement to the presence of kick drums especially.

Swapped to the D7.2s and quite a stark contrast. Not in a good way. Way too bright on the top end and none of the life and natural warmth in the mids. Put Money for Nothing (SACD) on and my wife noticed how painful the high end now was at higher volume and how flat the mids were. Stuck a few other tracks on (mix of vinyl, SACD and streamed) and frankly didn’t like what I was hearing compared to the A7s. Bass was boomy and a bit muddled at times. Now I’m sure the D7.2s are fine speakers but in this set up, in my living room and to my ears the A7s are just better suited all round. Ideally what I’m looking to achieve is as close to a live music sound mix as possible at home.

The final test was to swap out the XS 3 for the Supernait 3 the dealer also left... what a guy! Threw the latest Go Go Penguin album on the LP12 racked up the volume and sat back. Wow!

I think I have my ideal combination now! Trouble is every single element is 3x what I had budgeted... guess I might have to sell some of the whisky collection. The SA20 is likely to be on the way out and I also have an almost mint Ortofon Bronze from the P3 debacle to trade in so maybe not quite such a financial hit. One thing is for sure the A7s are staying.

TLDR? The A7s are amazing and I’m going to purchase them over the D7.2s!

So how does the "Arcam sound" compare to "Naim sound"?

I think the SA20 might pair better with the D7.2s because of the "warmer" sound? But my guess is that the D7.2s requires a much more powerful amp to make it work well.

Thanks for the update!
 
How much better are Kef Q350 over MA Bronze 2? I see Sevenoaks have the Q350 on offer for £396, which is tempting.
 
How much better are Kef Q350 over MA Bronze 2? I see Sevenoaks have the Q350 on offer for £396, which is tempting.
In all honesty it's only you that can decide. KEFs will have a wider dispersion than the MAs because of the UniQ design and they dig a little deeper.
 
I’ll come back on the question of the Arcam vs Naim in a bit more detail in a couple of days once I swap back from the Supernait 3 to the SA20 for a final comparison and decision time.

It does feels quite unfair to face a £1k amp off against one costing over three times the price and also a mismatch with speakers costing over four times the price, but I came to this demo phase with the view that I’d keep the SA20 and get the best speakers I could for now and to match with future upgrades. Worth going back to see if I can still live with the SA20 after the Supernait 3. That will be the litmus test!!

Listening to Becks Sea Change on the LP12 just now and the A7s are just such capable speakers, so graceful and balanced with just a touch of warmth. They seem so adept with such a wide range of music - equally at home with Go Go Penguin, Mozart and Dua Lipa which suits me perfectly!

The Supernait 3 has been on for over 24 hours now and the bass has become more prominent for sure. It’s a lovely pairing with the A7s, but what is most clear is that it’s taken me less than a day to decide I need to have an LP12 as my primary source! Streaming and CD/SACD from the CDS50 is great, but the LP12 just brings everything to life in the way I thought good vinyl would.

Time to blow the budget and remortgage the house ;-)
 
I’ll come back on the question of the Arcam vs Naim in a bit more detail in a couple of days once I swap back from the Supernait 3 to the SA20 for a final comparison and decision time.

It does feels quite unfair to face a £1k amp off against one costing over three times the price and also a mismatch with speakers costing over four times the price, but I came to this demo phase with the view that I’d keep the SA20 and get the best speakers I could for now and to match with future upgrades. Worth going back to see if I can still live with the SA20 after the Supernait 3. That will be the litmus test!!

Listening to Becks Sea Change on the LP12 just now and the A7s are just such capable speakers, so graceful and balanced with just a touch of warmth. They seem so adept with such a wide range of music - equally at home with Go Go Penguin, Mozart and Dua Lipa which suits me perfectly!

The Supernait 3 has been on for over 24 hours now and the bass has become more prominent for sure. It’s a lovely pairing with the A7s, but what is most clear is that it’s taken me less than a day to decide I need to have an LP12 as my primary source! Streaming and CD/SACD from the CDS50 is great, but the LP12 just brings everything to life in the way I thought good vinyl would.

Time to blow the budget and remortgage the house ;-)

Upgraditis has taken hold. You're doomed! 😊
 
I’ve had some time with the three amps this evening and had lots of fun comparing them. Worth noting that I kept to the LP12 for source and just used the A7s. The D7.2s are back in their boxes. Good speakers just not as well matched with either the Arcam or Naim amps.

I started with the Supernait 3 and some jazz, classical and acoustic, swapped in the XS3 and then finished with the Arcam SA20, before working my way back up with some dance music. I have no idea if this is good practise or not, but it seemed to allow for a decent side by side comparison.

First up the Supernait 3 is clearly the best amp of the three and so it should be considering the comparative prices. It’s all round more musical, detailed and generally more engaging. It also seems to pair extremely well with the A7s with a well balanced and muscular sound. The bass is very present and very detailed, music moves along at pace and is a lot of fun. There really isn’t anything to dislike here. Even at high volume it drove the A7s effortlessly and without the harsh high end produced with the D7.2s.

The XS3 looses some of the detail and life of the Supernait 3. The bass is there and has a lovely punch to it, but for example with double bass you can’t hear the “pinging” of the strings that are evident with its big brother. The mid-range also feels a bit more constrained with jazz/classical, the instruments are all there but they just seem a bit more packed in and have less clarity. That said piano or lead guitars seem to present themselves really well with a natural and neutral tone.

With dance Music the XS3 really rocks out! It seems very well suited to this style of music where a narrower soundstage and less detail isn’t massively detrimental The bass is possibly more dynamic than with the Supernait 3 if a little “forced” at times.

The Arcam certainly has a different house sound to the Naims but it’s less pronounced than I was expecting. The Arcam and Kefs sounded like musical clotted cream, whereas the Arcam and A7s have just a touch of creamy goodness, but allow the original flavour of the music through in a more organic way. Lovely, rich pianos and vocals with more relaxed music styles. Classical sounds good with a wide soundstage and good separation, but it certainly has a lot less detail and clarity compared to the Naims (especially the SN3). It’s a very enjoyable combination nonetheless. With dance music it’s good, but the contrast as you move on to the XS3 is significant. If I only ever listened to dance music I’d probably go with the XS3! The SN3 is just a touch more refined and this means it carries less impact with high energy dance.

I don’t think you’d be disappointed with the SA20 and A7 combination and you’d know that the speakers have a lot more potential to reveal should you decide to upgrade your amp in future.

If I only listened to jazz/classical/acoustic then I’d be pretty happy with this set up. If I was only into dance or electronic then I could certainly justify double the price for the XS3, otherwise it’s less of a jump. The SN3 is the best all rounder and benefits from a really good internal phono stage that is leaps ahead of the other two amps equivalents.

In summary all great amps. All work well with the A7s. Depending on how you approach the whole system budget ratio question it might be seen as rather imbalanced to use an SA20 with speakers three times the cost. I think it’s probably best just to try the combination and if you like how it sounds go for it!

Hope that helps!
 
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I’ve had some time with the three amps this evening and had lots of fun comparing them. Worth noting that I kept to the LP12 for source and just used the A7s. The D7.2s are back in their boxes. Good speakers just not as well matched with either the Arcam or Naim amps.

I started with the Supernait 3 and some jazz, classical and acoustic, swapped in the XS3 and then finished with the Arcam SA20, before working my way back up with some dance music. I have no idea if this is good practise or not, but it seemed to allow for a decent side by side comparison.

First up the Supernait 3 is clearly the best amp of the three and so it should be considering the comparative prices. It’s all round more musical, detailed and generally more engaging. It also seems to pair extremely well with the A7s with a well balanced and muscular sound. The bass is very present and very detailed, music moves along at pace and is a lot of fun. There really isn’t anything to dislike here. Even at high volume it drove the A7s effortlessly and without the harsh high end produced with the D7.2s.

The XS3 looses some of the detail and life of the Supernait 3. The bass is there and has a lovely punch to it, but for example with double bass you can’t hear the “pinging” of the strings that are evident with its big brother. The mid-range also feels a bit more constrained with jazz/classical, the instruments are all there but they just seem a bit more packed in and have less clarity. That said piano or lead guitars seem to present themselves really well with a natural and neutral tone.

With dance Music the XS3 really rocks out! It seems very well suited to this style of music where a narrower soundstage and less detail isn’t massively detrimental The bass is possibly more dynamic than with the Supernait 3 if a little “forced” at times.

The Arcam certainly has a different house sound to the Naims but it’s less pronounced than I was expecting. The Arcam and Kefs sounded like musical clotted cream, whereas the Arcam and A7s have just a touch of creamy goodness, but allow the original flavour of the music through in a more organic way. Lovely, rich pianos and vocals with more relaxed music styles. Classical sounds good with a wide soundstage and good separation, but it certainly has a lot less detail and clarity compared to the Naims (especially the SN3). It’s a very enjoyable combination nonetheless. With dance music it’s good, but the contrast as you move on to the XS3 is significant. If I only ever listened to dance music I’d probably go with the XS3! The SN3 is just a touch more refined and this means it carries less impact with high energy dance.

I don’t think you’d be disappointed with the SA20 and A7 combination and you’d know that the speakers have a lot more potential to reveal should you decide to upgrade your amp in future.

If I only listened to jazz/classical/acoustic then I’d be pretty happy with this set up. If I was only into dance or electronic then I could certainly justify double the price for the XS3, otherwise it’s less of a jump. The SN3 is the best all rounder and benefits from a really good internal phono stage that is leaps ahead of the other two amps equivalents.

In summary all great amps. All work well with the A7s. Depending on how you approach the whole system budget ratio question it might be seen as rather imbalanced to use an SA20 with speakers three times the cost. I think it’s probably best just to try the combination and if you like how it sounds go for it!

Hope that helps!

Thanks again for sharing your journey. Yep, the SA20 is quite musical and is an easy listen but may lack that super fine detail. It has definitely done a good job in keeping me sane during these extended-stay-home days, LOL. As for price budgets, I think it's a good balance because you always should spend more on speakers (because it basically sets the stage on sound). Then followed by amplification and source.

Seems like the SN3 and A7 is probably the best combo if money is no concern. But then if you can afford a SN3, you should get even "better" speakers for it. It's a sick hobby! LOL

So what's next?
 
Glad you are enjoying the SA20 it’s a really good sounding amp and based on my limited experience you’d have to spend about twice as much to get a decent improvement.

Not sure what I’m going to do. The XS3 seems to sit on the edge of a precipice that leads to huge cost for ever decreasing step changes in performance. That said stretching to the Supernait provides a really excellent platform for building out a system. Thinking ahead at some stage I’m probably going to want some balance between the source components. The CDS50 is a very good CD player and competent streamer (despite the software challenges) but I’d probably see myself upgrading to separate units in the future, or at least keeping it for CDs and getting a dedicated streamer.

WG
 
Only just caught this thread - interesting read!

I've found some variety between speakers from a particular brand, but as people mention there are often common cahracteristics within brand.

Every KEF I've ever listened to has really impressed with soundstage (I've never heard anything better)
But sometimes they are little warm or smooth for my liking. (for others thats a plus point)

Recent Monitor Audio have been pretty neutral/flat to me (not V shaped with recessed mids) with treble extending without spiking too much or falling off too fast. For people who like their bass this can sometimes seem bright (and maybe older Monitors were brighter?). What I like about Monitor is the detail and energy that is usually present.

I've also always found B&W to have great energy and detail. However some B&W have been the only speakers I have ever found to be difficult to listen to for an extended period. Somewhere in the lower treble to upper mid there is often a characteristic forwardness (increased in volume like they are coming at you in the sound stage?). This undoubtedly helps in communicating detail in those frequencies but I found it too full on - I may just be a bit weak :)

The other thing is that all of these characteristics might be emphasised or lessened by amp (and source) selection.
A bright/analytical amp (Naim?) with Monitor or B&W might be too much for most people, but might work well with KEF? And a warmer/smoother amp (arcam?) might pair well with the Monitor/B&W or it seems Spendor.

Your description of Spendor is really interesting and I'd love to audition (not that I'm looking to buy).
At some stage you have to be happy with your decisions and stop reading forums where temptation lies...

Great disciplined auditioning process by the way.
Good luck with your final decision.
 
Apollo83 the decision has been made!

The dealer has offered me a generous trade-in and some good prices so I’m going to say goodbye to the SA20 (it was short but sweet) and hello to the ex-demo (but really new given I’m the only person that has demoed it!) Supernait 3.

I’d already decided that it had to be the A7s and to remortgage for the Linn LP12 so hopefully in a few weeks time I’ll have the new toys settled in.

It’s a much bigger hit on the wallet in one go than I expected, but I really love the combination and have the foundations to add a couple of nice upgrades in years to come. I’ve found myself using Tidal to discover new music (mainly whilst working during the day) and then buying stuff that suits on vinyl for dedicated listening enjoyment. That might change in future and I think a really good streamer might be on the list, but for now I’m looking forward to enjoying the new set up and playing some great music!

WG
 
Happy listening.

I have recently made a couple of minor upgrades to my 25 or so year old system, and will not, apart from perhaps a cartridge or two, need to do more. Happy with what I have. Don't have anything digital, apart from CD player and probably won't have.
 
Apollo83 the decision has been made!

The dealer has offered me a generous trade-in and some good prices so I’m going to say goodbye to the SA20 (it was short but sweet) and hello to the ex-demo (but really new given I’m the only person that has demoed it!) Supernait 3.

I’d already decided that it had to be the A7s and to remortgage for the Linn LP12 so hopefully in a few weeks time I’ll have the new toys settled in.

It’s a much bigger hit on the wallet in one go than I expected, but I really love the combination and have the foundations to add a couple of nice upgrades in years to come. I’ve found myself using Tidal to discover new music (mainly whilst working during the day) and then buying stuff that suits on vinyl for dedicated listening enjoyment. That might change in future and I think a really good streamer might be on the list, but for now I’m looking forward to enjoying the new set up and playing some great music!

WG

Congrats! Good to stretch a little bit more now to buy more time till the upgrade bug bites again. Lol

Enjoy!
 
A bright/analytical amp (Naim?) with Monitor or B&W might be too much for most people, but might work well with KEF?
Naim (XS2 on audition) was pretty poor with KEFs, bass control is their downfall. Naim and KEF would not be my recommendation. KEF with Rega is pretty much spot on.
 

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