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DTS: X is finally launched

Seriously Ltd

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Dolby specify the use of up to 34 speakers in an Atmos system. FH and RH ARE part of this specification.
D&M products allow for this Atmos speaker placement as does the Steinway P200 , Trinnov Altitude,Storm and Datasat RS20i processors.

Dolby recommends that these speakers are used in conjunction with either TF TM TR.
So YES they are DESIGNATED Atmos speaker locations.

I have spent many many hours with 5 different Atmos systems experimenting with the optimal Atmos layout for different rooms.

In my room FH's provide the best results. Dolby also recommend direct firing speakers for all speakers. I use tripole surrounds and will be using tripole for TM as they give far better results in medium and small rooms.

Dolby provide a set of guidelines.

I can assure you that I am def not running a pseudo Atmos system.

You will also find that DTS prescribe to the use of FH and RH speakers for DTS:X as well as in ceiling.

ImageUploadedByAVForums1427920401.541031.jpg

Taken from the Dolby Atmos PDF
 

whitehart

Active Member
So in a nut shell - will my ATMOS speaker setup also work for DTS-X? I have a 5.1.2 setup (I know I will have to get a new amp for DTS-X most likely- I was just wondering about the ATMOS speakers I have already if they would work with DTS-X?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Dolby specify the use of up to 34 speakers in an Atmos system. FH and RH ARE part of this specification.
D&M products allow for this Atmos speaker placement as does the Steinway P200 , Trinnov Altitude,Storm and Datasat RS20i processors.

Dolby recommends that these speakers are used in conjunction with either TF TM TR.
So YES they are DESIGNATED Atmos speaker locations.

I have spent many many hours with 5 different Atmos systems experimenting with the optimal Atmos layout for different rooms.

In my room FH's provide the best results. Dolby also recommend direct firing speakers for all speakers. I use tripole surrounds and will be using tripole for TM as they give far better results in medium and small rooms.

Dolby provide a set of guidelines.

I can assure you that I am def not running a pseudo Atmos system.

You will also find that DTS prescribe to the use of FH and RH speakers for DTS:X as well as in ceiling.

View attachment 571362
Taken from the Dolby Atmos PDF

So you've a cinema? I see no reference to height speakers within any literature that deals with the consumer home theatre implimentation of Atmos? Which receiver do you have because I know of no integrated receiver able to deal with anything more than at most a 7.1.4 Atmos configurations and that configuration requires the use of either 4 ceiling mounted speakers or 4 Atmos upward firing speakers. The home implimention doesn't even fascilitate the additional width channels associated with the theatre implementation of Atmos.

If you could fascilitate Atmos as intended by Dolby using wall mounted height speakers rather than ceiling speakers then don't you think Dolby would be publicising the fact or are they promoting the use of ceiling speakers because they think it more convenient for people to implement them? Why bither promoting upward firing speakers to negate the need for seiling speakers if all they need to do is tell peole to mount the speakers on the wall?

As far as Dolby are concerned, the 12 channel or less home implementation of Atmos does not use or fascilitate the use of height speakers.

If using a high end processor with the ability to process up to 32 channels of Atmos data then you are not a typical Atmos home consumer. Most people will be limited to ceiling or upward firing speaker arrangements without the additional possibility of additional width or height channels. You yourself cannot have additional channels because you state that you've a 5.2.2 setup so you're not able to utilise the extra height channel capabilities alongside the more conventional Atmos arrangent. The primary Atmos audio channels are those associated with the ceiling speakers, not the height or width channels. If using a high end processor with the ability to process up to 32 channels of Atmos data then you'd be implimenting speaker configurations associated with theatres as opposed to those being used by most Atmos home AV receivers owners use or can facilitate.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
So in a nut shell - will my ATMOS speaker setup also work for DTS-X? I have a 5.1.2 setup (I know I will have to get a new amp for DTS-X most likely- I was just wondering about the ATMOS speakers I have already if they would work with DTS-X?

No one knows yet. DTS will be making an announcement and officially launching the new format on April 9th. We'll hopefully get some answers then?
 

Seriously Ltd

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So you've a cinema? I see no reference to height speakers within any literature that deals with yjr home theatre implimentation of Atmos? Which receiver do you have because I know of no receiver able to deal with anything more than a 7.1.4 Atmos configurations and that configuration requires the use of either 4 ceiling mounted speakers or 4 Aymos upward firing speakers. The home implimention doesn't even fascilitate the additional width channels associated with the theatre implementation of Atmos.

If you could fascilitate Atmos as intended by Dolby using wall mounted height speakers rather than ceiling speakers then don't you think Dolby would be publicising the fact or are they promoting the use of ceiling speakers because they think it more convenirent for people to implement them?

As far as Dolby are concerned, the 9 channel or less home implementation of Atmos does not use height speakers.

If using a high end processor with the ability to process up to 32 channels of Atmos data then you are not a typical Atmos home consumer. Most people will be limited to ceiling or upward firing speaker arrangements without the additional possibility of additional width or height channels. You yourself cannot have additional channels because you state that you've a 5.2.2 setup so you're not able to utilise the extra height channel capabilities. The primary Atmos audio channels are those associated with the ceiling speakers, not the height or width channels.
I use a Marantz AV7702. Like the 8802 and the Denon X5200,X7200 they allow for FH and RH speakers to be used as Atmos speakers. It still has to confirm to a maximum of 4 height speakers ie FH and TM or TF and RH etc.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I think you are supposed to add the height speakers to a setup that includes the ceiling speakers as opposed to replacing the ceiling speakers in favour of the height speakers? I think the additional channels deal with different aspects of the audio so some pretty major aspects to the Atmos arrangent will be absent if only using the height speakers and associated channels without the channels associated with the ceiling speakers? You're basically only getting part of the Atmos audio and probably not the best bits if wanting to get the most from object orientated audio?

I can only reiterate that Dolby themselves are not suggesting heights be used in place of ceiling speakers and Dolby developed Atmos and own the rights to it so they and they akone are the prime authority on it use and the speaker configurations it requires.
 
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Ronski

Well-known Member
Doesn't the Atmos system go through a setup procedure, measuring the response from each speaker and therefore taking into account it's position? Surely it is this that perhaps allows Atmos to be quite flexible to the positions of the speakers.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Again, if this is the case then why are Dolby suggesting ceiling speakers be used if not required? The whole issue about Atmos is its dependance on ceiling speakers so it would have been in Dolby's interest to not promote the use of ceiling speakers if not actually required. If height speaker can be used then you can have the same speaker configuration for both Atmos and Auro 3D.

Atmos is mixed for theatres that have ceiling speakers. The audio is mixed in relation to the speakers being on the ceiling. Moving the speakers to the walls doesn't reflect the mix or how the audio was perceived by the person mixing it.

Like it or lump it, Atmos uses ceiling or upward firing speakers and ceiling speakers play a major part in its operation.
 
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Seriously Ltd

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Doesn't the Atmos system go through a setup procedure, measuring the response from each speaker and therefore taking into account it's position? Surely it is this that perhaps allows Atmos to be quite flexible to the positions of the speakers.
Exactly.
Dolby suggest height speakers based on the TF TM and TR layout as their preffered use of height speakers.

They also subscribe to FH and RH but this is not their preffered method. They suggest that FH be used in conjunction with say a TM location.

Wide channels are also a prescribed home Atmos speaker location but this is not supported by D&M products nor DSU.

The processor knows I am running FH speakers and sends the appropriate Atmos info to those speakers. I am not losing any information. If I add a pair of TM speakers then the additional info will also be directed to those speakers,improving the experience again.

Dante, do you not think that I would have gone for TF speakers if this was required?

Having FH speakers gives a bigger soundstage in my room than TF speakers can.

If I had low ceilings then FH's would not work as well so would not be used.
 
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Seriously Ltd

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If I were to install TF speakers they would be an inch higher and 2' closer to the MLP. Very little difference.

The Atmos processor knows where these speakers are located and sends the relevant info to them.

Why do you think DTS:X is speaker location agnostic?
 

Ronski

Well-known Member
@dante01 From the little I know and understand Atmos is a 3D object based sound system, the guy mixing the sound says this sound originates from a 3 dimensional position, not from a specific speaker or speakers as with 5.1. The setup procedure will map the positions of each available speaker, and then try to position the sound in the correct place using the available speakers.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Atmos is mixed in relation to a 24.1.10 configuration. Atmos height and width audio is not the same audio as that associated with the overhead channels or the speakers that would be located over your head in an Atmos theatre.

Again, if height speakers can be used then why all the debacle about having to use ceiling speakers if wanting Atmos? Are you saying there's no need for ceiling speakers and everyone including Dolby are wrong?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
@dante01 From the little I know and understand Atmos is a 3D object based sound system, the guy mixing the sound says this sound originates from a 3 dimensional position, not from a specific speaker or speakers as with 5.1. The setup procedure will map the positions of each available speaker, and then try to position the sound in the correct place using the available speakers.
The studio is set up exactly as a theatre would be with all the relevant speakers located around the person mixing the audio. He hears the audio via the speakers as he mixes it.



Atmos quantifies the speaker configuration you have in relation to the mix. It cannot create audio in every aspect or position of the mix irrespective of where you've placed the speakers. The speakers have to be vaguely located in relation to their primary location in order for you to get what the audio engineer intended you to hear. Atmos can only comply with known audio constraints and isn't magic :)
 
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Seriously Ltd

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Atmos is mixed in relation to a 24.1.10 configuration. Atmos height and width audio is not the same audio as that associated with the overhead channels or the speakers that would be located over your head in an Atmos theatre.

Again, if height speakers can be used then why all the debacle about having to use ceiling speakers if wanting Atmos? Are you saying there's no need for ceiling speakers and everyone including Dolby are wrong?
Dolby say ceiling speakers work better than front/rear height speakers. I have tried both back to back and I prefer FH speakers.

You seem to think as Ronski stated that this is the old channel based system. It's not, it renders audio to the speaker locations. The Dolby layout is a "guideline"of where to place your speakers for best results they also list FH and RH speakers!!!

Why does my processor allow me to run FH speakers in an Atmos set up if it's not allowed?

It will also allow me to add TM or TR or RH.

If I had a Datasat I could run 32 channels of Atmos including FH and RH.

I don't think you are grasping what object based audio is Dante.
 

Ronski

Well-known Member
@dante01 you are still thinking the old fashioned way, not object orientated. In 5.1 the guy mixing the sound does exactly what you say, altering levels for each channel to get it to sound correct and in the right position. To replicate that in the home you need the speakers in the same place.

Now with object orientated sound the guy mixing the sound is positioning the sounds in 3D space (within the bounds of the space of the speakers), basically saying this sound originates from position X,Y & Z (Z being height). Now the Atmos processor knows the position of each speaker from the set up procedure, so it can allow for each speaker to be in a different position. Obviously there will be optimum positions, and this will probably vary for each room.

Just noticed your last edit - that's sort of what I'm getting at.
 

Seriously Ltd

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AVForums Sponsor
@dante01 you are still thinking the old fashioned way, not object orientated. In 5.1 the guy mixing the sound does exactly what you say, altering levels for each channel to get it to sound correct and in the right position. To replicate that in the home you need the speakers in the same place.

Now with object orientated sound the guy mixing the sound is positioning the sounds in 3D space (within the bounds of the space of the speakers), basically saying this sound originates from position X,Y & Z (Z being height). Now the Atmos processor knows the position of each speaker from the set up procedure, so it can allow for each speaker to be in a different position. Obviously there will be optimum positions, and this will probably vary for each room.

Just noticed your last edit - that's what I'm getting at.
Well explained Ronski.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Dolby say ceiling speakers work better than front/rear height speakers. I have tried both back to back and I prefer FH speakers.

You seem to think as Ronsjinstated that this is the old channel based system. It's not, it renders audio to the speaker locations. The Dolby layout is a "guideline"of where to place your speakers for best results they also list FH and RH speakers!!!

Why does my processor allow me to run FH speakers in an Atmos set up if it's not allowed?

It will also allow me to add TM or TR or RH.

If I had a Datasat I could run 32 channels of Atmos including FH and RH.

I don't think you are grasping what object based audio is Dante.
It is still mixed in a studio with the associated speakers located around the person mixing it. The hinting would use every single one of them if you had them and the processor required. Atmos cannot recreate the exact same audio as the engineer heard irrespective of where you place your speakers. It can approximate, but only if the speakers you do have are located where Dolby suggest they be placed. The width data is there, but you don't get the width audio without the width speakers being placed where you expect them to be placed.

Honestly, why do you think Dolby suggest using ceiling speakers as opposed to simply using speakers on a wall?

and I know exactly how Atmos is mixed and it is not mixed by someone sat in a office guessing where the audio will be heard in your room through speakers he doesn't know where they are.

For a start, audio in the horizontal plain is not perceived in the same way as that perceived in the vertical and it is impossible for speakers placed in one orientation to mimic those placed in the other. How can you possibly get wall mounted speakers to emulate speakers mounted on a ceiling?

And again, why aren't Auro Technologies saying we told you so if Dolby are indeed now dropping the need for ceiling speakers and adopting Auro's configuration?
 
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Seriously Ltd

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
We are going round in circles here.

I'm going to get back to my movie in pseudo,quasi Atmos, whilst kicking myself for installing £2k worth of FH speakers that I shouldn't have!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
All I can say is why aren't Dolby taking more notice of you? They'd be avoiding a lot of the critism they've had to endure relating to Atmos needing ceiling speakers. Maybe is was all a ploy to trademark Atmos upward firing speakers and make a killing with the additional revenue they'd gleen from the licensing?

Actually, the way Dolby are going then the above sounds quite possible? :confused:

By the way, as far as your processor and amplification goes, the audio is still channel based irespective of it being derrived via Atmos encoding. The processor interpretes the metadata and compares it to its own configuration in order for it to then generate the channels from the stream relevant to each speaker present. The format isn't channel based, but the processor and your amps are. Stick a speaker in your kitchen and the audio will not emanate from your cupboard under the stairs or indeed from your ceiling. As I said, Atmos ain't magic :)
 
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sjackson

Well-known Member
I think what the guys are getting at is that FH & RH is possible (and acceptable) for Atmos but not optimal. Optimal (in most situations) = 4 ceiling speakers.

For what it's worth, my Yamaha 3040 allows the use of FH/RH for Atmos.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Optimal would actually be the front heights, the full compliment of ceiling speakers, the rear heights plus the width speakers. Basically the 24.1.10 configuration Atmos is authored in relation to.

The fact of the matter is that the heights are indeed encompassed by Atmos, but a different aspect of Atmos to what is associated with the audio from the ceiling speakers. An actual Atmos equipped cinema would have all the speakers and would fully utilise the full potential of the data held within the Atmos encoding, the same metadata that is present within the Atmos encoded content you can now buy on Blu-ray.

I see no reason not to use the heights, but they are not emulating the audio you'd get via ceiling speakers and they are creating a different aspect of Atmos audio. I guess this is worth exploring in terms of personal preference if dealing with a setups that cannot provide both, but do offer the opportunity to use one as opposed to the other or a mixture of both given the number of amplified channels you have available?
 
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Steve Stifler

Well-known Member
I hope the delay was to allow time to tweak their design so speaker locations will be as close as possible to Atmos and Auro. Roll on 9 April for clarity.
 

Ronski

Well-known Member
How can you possibly get wall mounted speakers to emulate speakers mounted on a ceiling?
Perhaps because they are mounted at the top of the wall, which is very close to the ceiling. That's all I'm saying.
 

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