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First look at JVC's new projectors with HDR

Pecker

Distinguished Member
A great read, as usual.

Regarding:

"Although the Gravity demonstration was a timely reminder of just how good Blu-ray can look, things are changing and the new JVC projectors are perfectly positioned to take advantage of the new standards. The final demonstration involved JVC showing a specially commissioned short film, first in standard dynamic range and then in high dynamic range (HDR). The difference was very noticeable, with the SDR version appearing almost washed out and detail in bright or dark parts of the image being lost."

Did the Blu-ray of Gravity look washed out, or just the short?

I'm wondering if there's something else going on here - footage being mastered for HDR not looking so good in SDR, or something like that?

No disrespect to JVC, but I never trust any of these demos, whether it's JVC, Sony, or anyone. I remember my earliest experience of 1080p HD - there was a TV with HD on the left and 'simulated SD' on the right, and it was clear the SD footage looked far worse than on my SD set at home. It is in the interests of manufacturers to exaggerate the difference between the new tech and the old as much as possible.

Having said that, these do look like they're going to be stunning projectors. I wonder if they've caught up with Sony on motion handling.

Steve W
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
No the Gravity footage looked amazing, as I said in the previous paragraph. In the short film they showed, the SDR version appeared blown-out in comparison to the HDR version, in other words there was detail in the bright and dark parts of the image that wasn't visible in the SDR version because that master didn't have the latitude to show it. As I said in the article, HDR is about increasing the dynamic range between black and white to reveal details that previously couldn't be resolved when content was mastered at 100 Nits. I agree that these demos are obviously designed to show the product in the best possible light but I think JVC did a better job of demonstrating the potential of the X5000 and X9000 than Sony did with the VW520. I'm not sure what you mean by JVC catching up with Sony in terms of motion handling, they both use variations of LCoS, so the native motion handling is essentially the same.
 

malky78

Well-known Member
Thanks for the 1st impressions. Looking forward to the full X5000 review ;) Does this mean the X3 line has been dropped?
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
JVC stopped producing the X35 last year, so the X5000 at £3,999 is essentially the budget model this year. I think the X5000 does offer great value when you consider the original X3 cost about the same price when it launched at the end of 2010.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I'm not sure what you mean by JVC catching up with Sony in terms of motion handling, they both use variations of LCoS, so the native motion handling is essentially the same.
When I've seen the JVCs I felt the motion handling wasn't as good as the Sony (all processing turned off), and I think a few others feel the same, from what I've read.

Steve W
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I haven't had a chance to compare the motion handling on the JVC and Sony projectors directly but I can't say that they've appeared any different to me in testing. As I said the technology is essentially the same, so they both suffer from the inherent weaknesses of LCD when it comes to motion handling.
 

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
Same boring boring JVC, Yawn! At least change the look... I predict them doing a "Panasonic" within 3 years
LOL, the Sony HW range have looked the same for the last 5 years at least, the VW range the same for the last 4 years and Epson TW and BenQ DLPs all look the same since time began. Have to say I'm more interested in the performance on screen, than how the case/chassis looks.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
I listened to the comments in the latest podcast with great interest.

It'd be very interesting to see a native 1080p projector which could accept a 4K/HDR signal and downscale it to 1080P, so we were getting full advantage of HDR, but without the added expenses of the not massively necessary upgrade to 4K.

I'm thinking something like my Sony HW40, but HDR, if that makes sense. I wouldn't have thought it'd be too much more expensive, would it?

Steve W
 

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
HDR technically doesn't need to be 4K. They could release BD versions in 1080 HDR if they wanted to. But, they won't and it will be available with 4K only. The JVC projectors are 1080p native machines and they accept 4K/HDR signals.
 

Apollo

Active Member
LOL, the Sony HW range have looked the same for the last 5 years at least, the VW range the same for the last 4 years and Epson TW and BenQ DLPs all look the same since time began. Have to say I'm more interested in the performance on screen, than how the case/chassis looks.
The Sony HW chassis dates back to the HW10 of late 2008, so 7 years and counting :)
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I think Epson's TW chassis came off the Ark but if it ain't broke...
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
HDR technically doesn't need to be 4K. They could release BD versions in 1080 HDR if they wanted to. But, they won't and it will be available with 4K only. The JVC projectors are 1080p native machines and they accept 4K/HDR signals.
Aye, I get that.

I think what I mean is that I might get a UHD player, and I might buy some of my favourite films on UHD disc, but I can't afford a 4K projector.

From what I can see it wouldn't be that expensive to add HDR functionality to the next generation of 1080p projectors - maybe something like a HDR-Sony HW40 for £2k or not much more.

That'd be a fairly accessible way to enter the UHD market. As it is, for projection systems, it's a complete waste of time unless you have £4k or £5K minimum to splash out on a new unit.

Steve W
 

Apollo

Active Member
Aye, I get that.

I think what I mean is that I might get a UHD player, and I might buy some of my favourite films on UHD disc, but I can't afford a 4K projector.

From what I can see it wouldn't be that expensive to add HDR functionality to the next generation of 1080p projectors - maybe something like a HDR-Sony HW40 for £2k or not much more.

That'd be a fairly accessible way to enter the UHD market. As it is, for projection systems, it's a complete waste of time unless you have £4k or £5K minimum to splash out on a new unit.

Steve W
The accessible way into the UHD market is with a UHD TV. Given the low penetration of projector ownership, even among forum members, it was always going to be a slow burn and premium priced to begin with unfortunately.

Justin
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
And that's the thing, I love my projector and while we are hearing HDR on a newer projector makes a difference, due to the light output I'm getting the impression its more impressive via TV's.
So if HDR on a TV > than HDR on a projector who wins from a film enjoyment perspective, the size of the projector screen wins for me hands down, but will the pop from HDR on a tele win me over....
Interesting times...and at the end of the day, it all comes back to content, never mind HDR content. At the same time, if you can view as the director intended, I want it, don't we all (at least on this forum as we spend many hours talking about the tech we love)?
 

Apollo

Active Member
Have Sony announced the RRPs of the VW320 & VW520? I didn't see them on the other article.
The same as the VW300 and VW520 I think Allan from IdealAV said?

Justin
 

Apollo

Active Member
Well it would be the same as the VW520:D.
Whoops, I shouldn't try eating and typing at the same time :laugh:

Of course, I meant the VW500.
 

Rich H

Active Member
Thanks you Steve (and the rest of the AVForum team - I also listened to the podcast).

The JVCs do indeed sound promising. Last model the gave me something I'd been wanting, even deeper black level performance (I use the DI on my RS57) and this year JVC is giving the other main element I desired: significantly higher brightness (because I sometimes view quite large images, and have also craved more light for 3D movies). So these new models are looking enticing.

Anyway, as I read the above report, and listened to the podcast, several questions arose:

1. HDR.

Your comments, and the comments by the AVForum staff on the podcast on the JVC's HDR performance seem to be describing the HDR on the JVC like you are describing a typical HDR still photo. That is, you describe it in terms of the ability to portray image detail normally lost due to exposure limitations. HDR in still photography (including the HDR setting on some of our smart phones) is about capturing such detail (typically by combining multiple exposures) and rendering it within the existing limitations of display, be it a paper print of the photo, or on an average computer monitor.

But that is NOT what I understand HDR for the video realm to be about. While one does want to capture a wider range of exposure detail in HDR, the main thrust is actually expanding the contrast/brightness and hence "dynamic range" of the DISPLAY in concert with the IMAGE. In other words, greatly increasing the *actual brilliance* of bright areas (especially specular high-lights, such as sun reflections off metal etc), against the darker areas, for a more real-life level of dynamic contrast. So it's about realistically increasing contrast/brightness of the display (and coding source material for such capabilities), not merely about image detail.

The amazing brightness and simultaneous contrast of the latest UHD flat panels allow for more life-like contrasts within an image and as we know for various reasons this is much harder to pull off in projection - brightness limitations from bulb projectors being one, projection limitations in ANSI-type contrast being another.

So it's really that aspect of HDR on projectors which I'd be most curious about - whether a current HDR-labelled projector can produce some sensation of this increased realism in terms of it's intrascene contrast range, the "brilliant light reflecting of a metal car" effect. Or whether this important aspect of HDR will be left only to the flat panels. That's why I found it curious (and a somewhat frustrating) to see HDR discussed by the AVForum team in terms of describing increased image detail, rather than in terms of dynamic contrast.

Did you notice any HDR-like increase in the realism of the contrast with the HDR over the normal content? (Thanks!)

2. Have you any idea of why the X7000/X9000 models would be rated at a higher brightness level over the X5000? What would account for that (especially since in previous generations, the lower end model was actually the brighter one, which I'd always presumed had to do with the different, dual IRIS implementation in the upper models). And for that matter, why would only
the X5000 take a step back in native contrast as a price for higher brightness and not the higher end models?

3. Do you know if the new line up features the same lens memories as the previous generation - that is 10 lens memories for the X7000/X9000? I use the midrange JVC RS57 and it's 10 lens memories has been very valuable, which is why I hope they continued this in the X7000 models.

4. Do you know if the Clear Black feature is still available on the new models? I'm one of those who like that feature (in low mode) for some content.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Just something to note Rich: The JVC spec sheet says that the light output is in each model's factory default setting. It wouldn't be hard to set up three identical projectors but with different default settings and achieve slightly different light outputs. Therefore I (cynically) suggest not to be too drawn to the difference in the figures. At least until someone actually measures a few examples anyway.
 

Rich H

Active Member
Good point Kelvin. Though in the past reviewers measuring the various models have generally validated the brightness/contrast differences spec'd by JVC between models.
 

lovingdvd

Novice Member
Good point Kelvin. Though in the past reviewers measuring the various models have generally validated the brightness/contrast differences spec'd by JVC between models.
Yes and it was quite encouraging to read in cine4home's preview of the new lineup that the pj he tested measured right around the 1,700 lumen spec, calibrated @ D65. He did not specify but I assume this was at shortest throw.
 

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