Good AV receiver or average AV receiver with pre amp

superphi

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Hi,

In the process of setting up a cinema room. Room is 5m x 4.5m with 2.4m ceiling.

I’ve got 3 x KEF LS50 for LCR.
Will be going for 5.2.4
Will be using kef ci160 ceiling speakers for Atmos. Not sure what to do about the surround speakers yet.

I won’t be listening to music in this room. I have kef r500s in the bigger lounge/kitchen diner. I’ve heard that the LS50 need a lot of power but will I notice the difference when just watching films?

I don’t want to spend too much on the AV receiver. I’ve seen Marantz 6012 used for circa £600. Will this be sufficient? Will sound be much different going to 6011?

Or should I get something cheaper and get a separate amp to power the front 2 channels like most people advise with the LS50s. If so, AirPlay is a must (for casual listening) and would like to be able to control volume on the main AV receiver. Not sure if the combo can be done for £600 ish used.
 
Film soundtracks have plenty of music in them and in many cases are essential to the atmosphere of the film. The LS50s will therefore perform better in that respect if they are given the benefit of a power amp. That though could be for the future as your choice of receiver will allow for the addition of a power amp if you think it needs it.

If you're running your R500s with a good power supply then you know just how well KEFs perform when it's adequate.
 
Thanks for the input. Do you have a suggestion bearing in mind my budget?
Based on my zero knowledge of ohms/rms jargon, I was thinking Marantz sr 6010 with a suitable 2 channel?
 
The 6010 will probably give you around 60 watts into a 5.1 per channel, not too shabby for a receiver. Will drive the LS50s and using a two or three channel power amp will greatly expand on that. I'm not up to spec on power amps as I use a stereo amp with HT by-pass to drive my KEF R300s as I share them for music as well.

Here's your guy, forgotten more than I'll ever know.
@BlueWizard
 
Choices at the moment are:
Marantz SR6010 + PM6006
Vs
Marantz 6011 or 6012

Or I could go with a better but ugly option for the power amp.

Ps didn’t realise power amps could be 3 channels lol.
 
...

Here's your guy, forgotten more than I'll ever know.
@BlueWizard

I'm not even sure I understand the question. So, the OP has about £600 to spend in an AV Receiver, and he has ...so far... invested in THREE SL50's. Am I close?

The LS50 are about £800/pr, so about £1200/per-3. These are going to need a Subwoofer. They are decent speakers for music, but on their own, while clear and present, they are not going to have the bass necessary for serious movie sound tracks.

In all honesty, £600 is more than a common middle of the road receiver. If you want to get serious, you need to spend above £1000.

I would say this is about your best deal in an AV Receiver, probably last years model, but it is an £900 amp for £600 -

Denon AVR-X3500H AV Receiver Black

7.2 Channel, 105w/ch, and all the typical things found on a AV Receiver.

Next down in the most current model would be the AVR-2600 - £599 -

Denon AVR-X2600H AV Amplifier Black

7.2 or 5.2.2 channels, 95w/ch to 8 ohms.

My advice would be ...unpleasant as it may seem... spend more money -

Marantz SR6013 AV Amplifier

Yamaha RX-A1080 7.2 Channel AV Receiver

Denon AVR-X4500H AV Receiver

-Denon AVRX6400H AV Receiver

Of you are going to build a system using the highly rated, and not exactly cheap, LS50, then the total for speakers is going to be around £3000/set, you are going to have to have a decent amp to make those speakers pay off.

Notice that many of the amps I suggested have huge discounts, so you are getting much more amp than you are paying for.

If you buy a lower cost amp, and want to add a power amp to it, remember that Power Amps are Expensive. There are PA/Pro power amps that are cheaper with very substantial power, but they aren't given them away.

These are often cited as very high value PA/Pro Power Amps -

Crown XLS 1002 Drivecore Power Amp

Crown XLS 1502 Drivecore Power Amp

The Crown XLS 1002 is £389 with 215w/ch to 8 ohms.

The Crown XLS 1502 is £475 with 300w/ch to 8 ohms.

So, you are adding that to your budget for close to £1000 total.



But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Hi @BlueWizard,
Thanks for the detailed response, gives me loads of googling and is a great starting point.

I forgot to mention I will have subs.
I picked up all three ls50s for under £700.

If I’m spending £700-£1000 than I will not go down the power amp route. But then it needs to be 9 channel for 5.2.4. I just figured it was a waste to blow most the amp budget on an av when it’s only 2 or 3 channels that need to be driven properly.

So you think I should just get a decent av receiver vs something like a sr6010 + Crown XLS 1002?

Forgot to say I’d be looking to buy this all USED on eBay as this room won’t be ready for at least 6 months. Still need to pour thousands into an extension first.
 
I would do as you're thinking and get a first gen Atmos AVR like the 6010 and pump the rest into the best power amp you can buy.
 
That Crown XLS 1002 is 215w/per channel compared to what @gibbsy said the 6010 would be at 60 w/per channel.

That’s a massive difference, is the Crowns capable of blowing the speakers?

Other than no home theatre bypass, what’s the draw back of the crowns over something like a Marantz pm6006?
 
Lol. Guns don’t kill people...

I’m confused as to how the volume control would work. Do I set the crowns to 70% volume and then leave it? Does my av receiver then control the volume for all speakers as a whole?

I have young kids and don’t want them playing around with it. I might set it to a volume and then remove the knobs. Don’t want them blowing my speakers lol
 
That Crown XLS 1002 is 215w/per channel compared to what @gibbsy said the 6010 would be at 60 w/per channel.

That’s a massive difference, is the Crowns capable of blowing the speakers?

Other than no home theatre bypass, what’s the draw back of the crowns over something like a Marantz pm6006?

Gibbsy already answer saying essentially the same thing but -

It is never Over-Powered or Under-Powered Amps that blow speakers; it is always the guy running the volume control. Don't be that guy.


I provided a video review of the Crown 1502, but later, that same person added some bigger Crown amps to his Home Theater system -
Z Review - My New 2,400wpc Living Room Amps -



He added TWO Crown XLS 2502 Amps (£589) running in bridge mode as Mono-Amp, each with a total power of 1550 watts to 8 ohms in Bridge-Mono mode; 2400 watts each to 4 ohms. Notice, while he has a nice setup, he really doesn't have a huge room.

Crown XLS 2502 Drivecore Power Amp

He used the Crown 1502 in Bridge-Mono mode, 1050w, to drive his Subwoofer. The Crown XLS Series have Electronic Crossover Control built in to the amps, so that made use with a Subwoofer very easy.

Now if you have that much power, you have to use it wisely, but Z-Reviews tests all kinds of speakers using those massive power amps, and hasn't had any problems.

Though I think most of us on the forum would agree that 1550w/ch is a bit of an overkill.

As to Drawbacks, it is really down to money. If I had your speaker system, or your speakers system as it will be when finished, which I estimate as likely more than £3000, I would be looking at an amp in the £1500 range which would take you to or near the top of the consumer brands.

But... we all do the best we can with what we have. I would look at amps with at least 100w/ch or very close to it. Look for AV Receiver with Pre-Amp outputs. In your case, with 5.2.4, you will need 9 channels, but that is going to raise the price.

Don't buy slim-line or compact AV Receiver, they tend to be very low in power. Consider, as mentioned before, buying new, but buying last year's model. You can get huge discounts, and end up with much more amp than you paid for.

For example, the Denon X4500 is a £1500 amp for £1000. If you can swing that, that's a pretty good deal. 9.2 Channel with 11.2 with additional amps, 125w/ch to 8 ohms.

The Yamaha RX-S1080 is a £1300 amp for £940 (110w/ch, 7.2).

The Denon X6400 is a £2300 amp for £1300 (11.2 Pre-Amp, 140w/ch).

Marantz SR6013 £1250/£959 (9.1 channel with 5.1.4 capability. Though the Single Sub channel can be split to feed two Subs, so that's not a problem, 110w/ch)

Keep in mind many amps capable of 11 channel, don't have 11 amps in them; so do, some don't. They rely on external amps to fill out the full compliment of channels.

Now if you choose wisely, and look carefully at the specs, you might find something in your price range in a used Receiver, that is another way of getting high value for your money. But you have to weigh the risk. Most people are not selling an AVR that is 1 year old. Most used sales, with a few exceptions, are models that are not up to current standards.

But if your budget is locked at about £600, then there are still some bargains to be had. On another website, I found the £900 Denon 3500 for £500, that's a very nice discount rivaling used.

Denon AVR-X3500H Black 7.2 Channel AV Receiver - AV Receivers / Amplifiers - AV Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

But it is a 7.2 amp Capable of 5.2.2 with 105w/ch.

If is really about working out your priorities. With a used budget, and a limited budget, you will only get just so much for your money. Keeping in mind that ATMOS is a relatively new thing, if you look at older amps, make sure they have this capability. Though do check out used equipment, you might find exactly what you are looking for.

Steve/bluewizard
 
I hope you don't mind, I'm in a similar boat, LS50's and old poor quality AV reciever, Steve, thanks for the info as it's been very valuable for me too!
 
Thanks @BlueWizard. Something to research into for the next few months
Hi Mate, I was in same quandary when my old Pioneer died, wanted ATMOS, I've ended up getting Marantz SR 7012, and to run 7.2.4, a 2nd hand Rotel RMB 1066 to power ceiling speakers, I've been pretty impressed and the Marantz isn't running too hot either. when time allows, I may rewire the Rotel to run my B&W CM7's, CMC, to again reduce stress on the 7012. I have to add that the Marantz has impressed in Cinema and Stereo modes,too! Just my 2 pennyworth, but good luck with both projects!:thumbsup:
 
Hi @wozrokka666 thanks for chiming in. So you run your LCR off of the 7012? How do you find that?

I’m not too clued up with B&Ws, do you know how the power need when compare to my LS50s?

@BlueWizard ive found a XLS 1502 used for £150. How would the sound compare with spending £250 ish for a used Marantz PM6006.
From what I’ve read, the crowns hardly ever have the fan on so on paper a much bettter choices apart from the inconventional looks in a HT sideboard/stand.
 
My B&Ws are rated at 85db sensitivity, which compared to many, is quite inefficient, but the Marantz seems to cope well with them at fairly loud levels. And in stereo,absolutely fine, my reason for thinking of swapping them over to the Rotel is simply that they are part of B&W group of companies, as similar with Marantz & Denon. May make no difference at all, but as my racking is a b*%th to move, it may be some time! I'd follow Bluewizard advice, eminently more knowledgeable than me. You won't go wrong with a Marantz as basis whatever additional power amp, I briefly had a PM 6006 uk se, but swapped it for an Arcam A85 that came my way, very good if you can get for right money!:)
 
The Marantz 6006 doesn't have HT by-pass, the signal from the receiver will have to go through the 6006's pre-amp. You will either have to manually balance the volume both the 6006 and the receiver. Unless you wish to use the 6006 for music as well, perhaps mated to a CD player or streamer, I would stick with a power amp that can be controlled from the receiver for volume.
 
I would agree with Sir Gibbsy, in that with either a 60 or 70 model, and any kind of power amp, you have option to bang more speakers in later should you wish to. The PM 6006 is a thoroughly good stereo amp for price bracket, but a multi channel such as the Rotel I have, gives option to expand. Mine cost £220, I think, with courier delivery. But with your LS50's, I'd definitely go for high power output amps, seen some horrific results in posts where underpowered and driven hard! As a further chime, I'd been sceptical about ATMOS, til I got this rig set up, no going back now! My DVD and standard Blu rays are staying, because DTS Neural X does a great job, but I've bought a few UHD discs, and those with ATMOS soundtracks put HT in a whole new place, so I'd say put some money aside for that side too! Expensive hobby/passion, this! Cheers, Woz
 
Hi peeps. Thanks for the info. So if a PM6006 doesn’t have HT bypass, then i might as well get a power amplifier like the Crown XLS if I’m on a budget.

Waiting for BlueWizards wisdom before I go and pick a xls 1502 up
 
...

@BlueWizard ive found a XLS 1502 used for £150. How would the sound compare with spending £250 ish for a used Marantz PM6006.

The XLS-1520 is a 300w/ch Class-D Amp, the Marantz PM6006 is a Class-A/B 45w/ch amp. The 1520 does not have a DAC, and is a pure Power Amp, the PM6006 does have a DAC but is an Integrated Amp. I'm not sure how or why anyone would ever consider both these amps for the same task.

Also keep in mind that you AV Receiver is very very very likely to have DOUBLE the power or more than the PM6006. So I'm not really sure what the point of using the PM6006 is?

The XLS-1520 and other Crown XLS models also have programmable High Pass, Low Pass, and Band Pass build in. Zeos (of Z-Reviews) bought his specifically for that purpose as he planned to use the XLS-1502 for his Passive Subwoofer.

Only at a later date when he was looking for power amps for his front speakers did it occur to him to simply buy more powerful Crown XLS-2505 Amps. Crown is a long time and major player in high quality Commercial and PA amps.

From what I’ve read, the crowns hardly ever have the fan on so on paper a much better choices apart from the unconventional looks in a HT sideboard/stand.

Zeos (Z-Reviews) says the same thing, even driving them hard, the Fans rarely to never come on.

If we use the 8 Ohm Stereo Power rating on the Crown XLS amp, they range from 215/ch up to 440w/ch. The massive power ratings that have been talked about are for Bridge Mono Mode, in this case, it ranges from 700w to 1550w to 8 ohms.

Prices range from £389 up to £589.

Product Search - Studiospares - "Crown XLS"

XLS-1002 @ £389 - 2ohm=550w - 4ohms=350w - 8ohm=215w - 8ohm Bridge=700w - 4ohm Bridge=1100w

XLS-1502 @ £475 - 2ohm=775w - 4ohms=525w - 8ohm=300w - 8ohm Bridge=1050w - 4ohm Bridge=1550w


XLS-2502 @ £589 - 2ohm=1200w - 4ohms=775w - 8ohm=440w - 8ohm Bridge=1550w - 4ohm Bridge=2400w

Realistically, the XLS-1002 at 215w/ch to 8 ohms is as much as anyone would ever need.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Last edited:
Hi peeps. Thanks for the info. So if a PM6006 doesn’t have HT bypass, then i might as well get a power amplifier like the Crown XLS if I’m on a budget.

Waiting for BlueWizards wisdom before I go and pick a xls 1502 up

I'm absolutely baffled by this, how ...what process of logic... allows you to think that a 45w/ch Integrated and a 300w/ch Power Amp are suited to the same task?

If you are using the Stereo Amp as a Power Amp for an AV Receiver, and all Analog Sources will be plugged into the AV Receiver, then how does a 45w/ch Integrated Amp improve the situation in any way? Likely the AVR will have close to or more than 100w/ch. So what is the advantage of a 45w/ch Stereo amp?

Next consider what you need and what you are willing to pay for an AV Reciever (new or used). I think £600 was discussed. If you take a £600 AVR and add a £475 Power Amp to it, are you sure that is better than simply buying a £1000 AVR either used or last years model?

I suspect there is an advantage to having substantial power on the Front Left/Right speakers, but does that over-ride the disadvantage of having an extra Box to deal with? That's a decision for you to make.

Realistically the XLS-1002 with 215w/ch is more than enough, but if you feel the 300w/ch of the XLS-1502 is worth it, that is your decision to make.

There is a certain degree of calibration of the Power Amp what will be necessary but that is simple enough. I can explain it when the time comes. There are controls on the front of the Amp, but those are NOT volume controls, they are Input Level Controls. They are to set the input level so it is in the working range of the amp. Again, the calibration is simply enough, but once these are set, you never touch them again, and you never allow your drunken friends to touch them. Many commercial amps have Locks for these controls so that once set, they can never be changed.

Again, don't worry about this aspect, it is simple enough. Get back to us when the time comes and we can explain it, or if you would like I can explain it now upon your request.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Hi @BlueWizard, I read somewhere that 50w on an integrated amp would still sound better than 100w from an av receiver but you have just squashed that for me.

The Crown XLS 1502 is what I found and I reckon I could get it for £120.

I would rather (like you said) just get a better av receiver. So just to clarify,

So my choices are:

Marantz sr6010 + Crown XLS 1502
Or
Marantz 6012/Denon 4400h

Just to clarify, 5.2.4
LS50 LCR
1 or 2 subwoofers
Probably Kef Eggs as surround or similar discrete looking speaker
4 kef ci160qr ceiling speakers

Which would you advise. Bearing in mind that if I did spend the extra on the 6012 or 4400h, I would NOT be buying any other power amp In the future as I need to draw the line on the money I’m spending.
 

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