Question How Critical is Speaker Position?

Monster900

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As posted in this thread I am in the process of buying new speakers to replace some ancient KEFs. My current replacement speakers of choice are the Mission QX-2, which I would have bought by now if my chosen supplier had them in stock.

I have been reading the manual and the manual says that they must be at least 20cm from the back wall and preferably 30cm. What Hifi tested them at 80cm from the wall and suggests a minimum of 40cm. The speakers are quite deep and at 80cm they would be nearly in the middle of the room. This requirement seems to be true of all modern rear ported speakers so if I am to buy something more modern it would seem that some wall stand off is needed whatever I buy.

The room is 4x4m and I sit about 3.5m from the opposite wall. So, as in the title, how close to the back wall can I reasonably expect to be able to place the speakers with significantly adversely affecting the sound quality?

Thanks all.

M
 
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I have rear ported KEF R300s sitting 30cm from a rear wall and they are half ported. I get a good tight bass that is very fast and accurate. The amp partnering was very important and when I auditioned a few years ago, I made sure the R300s in the dealers were placed exactly where they are at home. It made a difference on how the speakers performed with the amps under audition.

I suggest that if you audition then you place those speakers as they would be in your home, hopefully with the amp that you are using which you should be able to take with you. It was surprising as how different the amps performed rather than the speakers themselves and how much control they exerted over the R300s.
 
Every speaker, everyones ears and room is different. Best to experiment.

I have concept 40 speakers and they sound best in the middle of the room..very impractical. Whereas my Monitor 200 are also rear portee and still sound fine only 6 inches away from the wall.

It will cost money to get a decent amp with room correction.
 
Setting up speakers too close to the back wall reinforces the bass response but can make low frequencies sound less well defined. Moving the speaker out makes the bass sound more solid and authoritative. A good way to set up speakers is to use the Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes from her Famous Blue Raincoat record. The sound of the string bass on that track is a good way to gauge sound quality. As you gradually move your speakers out from the wall, the sound of the string bass will snap into focus at a certain distance.
 
Thanks to you all for your replies. Plenty to think about there.

'
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I suggest that if you audition then you place those speakers as they would be in your home, hopefully with the amp that you are using which you should be able to take with you. It was surprising as how different the amps performed rather than the speakers themselves and how much control they exerted over the R300s.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to audition the speakers beforehand. I live well out in the sticks in Wales so trying to travel hundreds of miles to do that is not really practical. I have, however, found a supplier that seems to have a very flexible returns policy on things like speakers.

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It will cost money to get a decent amp with room correction.

Wow, I didn't even know such things existed.

Setting up speakers too close to the back wall reinforces the bass response but can make low frequencies sound less well defined. Moving the speaker out makes the bass sound more solid and authoritative. A good way to set up speakers is to use the Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes from her Famous Blue Raincoat record. The sound of the string bass on that track is a good way to gauge sound quality. As you gradually move your speakers out from the wall, the sound of the string bass will snap into focus at a certain distance.

I must say this really is pretty thorough and sophisticated stuff. I'm not sure I would have the patience to do everything but it really gives a good idea as to what principles I should be adopting and what to look out for.

I don't have a copy of the Jennifer Warnes track you speak of and it would seem that it is only on the 20th anniversary edition. My 'go to' tracks for seeing if I like speakers are Toccata and Fugue in D minor on the St Paul's Cathedral organ and Miserere Mei, Deus by Oxford Camerati / Jeremy Summerly. Not that I usually listen to classical music but those two really do make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up on end, then it's back to the likes of Bruce Springsteen and Fairport Convention. I don't really know enough about hifi to know if they are good all round test but the bass notes of the organ and the high notes of the Miserere present a decent challenge.
 
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@Monster900 - it's easy to get too hung up on this kind of thing. I would say that every room and set up is a series of compromises, so you just try and do the best you can under the circumstances.

Hi-Fi amps with room correction aren't cheap. I've been incredibly lucky and managed to buy (hopefully) the last amp I'll ever own - a Lyngdorf TDAi 3400. I won't mention the price as you can look it up yourself, but it comes with its own proprietary room EQ called Room Perfect which was incredibly easy to use and make a noticeable difference in my room, especially with bass peaks.

Prior to the Lyngdorf, I had a tri-amped Arcam set up (1 x integrated and 2 x power amps), and no matter where I placed my PMC Twenty.26's in the room, there was still a noticeable bass boost on a specific track that I used for tweaking purposes. So sometimes it's just the music interacting with the room and it can all get rather complicated and expensive to alleviate this.

Good luck!:)
 
@Monster900 - it's easy to get too hung up on this kind of thing. I would say that every room and set up is a series of compromises, so you just try and do the best you can under the circumstances.

Hi-Fi amps with room correction aren't cheap. I've been incredibly lucky and managed to buy (hopefully) the last amp I'll ever own - a Lyngdorf TDAi 3400. I won't mention the price as you can look it up yourself, but it comes with its own proprietary room EQ called Room Perfect which was incredibly easy to use and make a noticeable difference in my room, especially with bass peaks.

Prior to the Lyngdorf, I had a tri-amped Arcam set up (1 x integrated and 2 x power amps), and no matter where I placed my PMC Twenty.26's in the room, there was still a noticeable bass boost on a specific track that I used for tweaking purposes. So sometimes it's just the music interacting with the room and it can all get rather complicated and expensive to alleviate this.

Good luck!:)

Thanks you.

That's a very nice system you have there. One day, when I stop doing other stuff (like racing motorbikes) I may turn my attention more seriously to listening to music. For me, it's interesting in that it reminds me of a 'rule of thumb' that I vaguely remember from I youth which is spend about the same amount on each element of your hifi system. In my day that would be the speakers, amp and turntable but I note your speakers and amp broadly follow that rule, albeit at an order of magnitude greater cost.

In my case the speakers I currently intend to buy are nominally £400 speakers which means I should use a £400 amp to drive them according to the 'rule'. My current intention is to try them on the amp that I have, an ancient Technics SA-EX310. If that doesn't sound so good buy something like a Marantz pm6006 or Yamaha RN 602.

Anyway, a step at a time.
 
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That's a very nice system you have there. One day, when I stop doing other stuff (like racing motorbikes) I may turn my attention more seriously to listening to music. For me, it's interesting in that it reminds me of a 'rule of thumb' that I vaguely remember from I youth which is spend about the same amount on each element of your hifi system. In my day that would be the speakers, amp and turntable but I note your speakers and amp broadly follow that rule, albeit at an order of magnitude greater cost.
Hah!

I don't bother with any of that, I just get the best I can afford!

Mind you, I still remember buying my first ever "proper" Hi-Fi system back in 1987 (yes, I really am that ancient) and I had a total budget of £1000 (which took me a year to save!).

I have no recollection of how I chose these components as there was no Internet then (I must have perused the Hi-Fi magazines of the time), but I bought:

An AR EB101 turntable
A Yamaha KX580 tape deck
A NAD 3155 amplifier
A pair of Tannoy M20 Gold speakers

And I thought it was the best thing I'd ever heard, though that was easy compared to my parents' radiogram (with internal drinks cabinet!)! I listened to so much music using that system and didn't change anything for about 10 years. Nothing broke down or wore out and I only upgraded as I actually had the money to do so.

Today, I would say you can spend £500 per component and get a really good system. Or just go completely minimal and get an all-in-one with streamer + a pair of active speakers. However, in my opinion and experience, it's the speakers that have the biggest influence on the overall sound and that's an area I'd always spend more money on than anything else.
 
Hah!

I don't bother with any of that, I just get the best I can afford!

Mind you, I still remember buying my first ever "proper" Hi-Fi system back in 1987 (yes, I really am that ancient) and I had a total budget of £1000 (which took me a year to save!).

I have no recollection of how I chose these components as there was no Internet then (I must have perused the Hi-Fi magazines of the time), but I bought:

An AR EB101 turntable
A Yamaha KX580 tape deck
A NAD 3155 amplifier
A pair of Tannoy M20 Gold speakers

And I thought it was the best thing I'd ever heard, though that was easy compared to my parents' radiogram (with internal drinks cabinet!)! I listened to so much music using that system and didn't change anything for about 10 years. Nothing broke down or wore out and I only upgraded as I actually had the money to do so.

Today, I would say you can spend £500 per component and get a really good system. Or just go completely minimal and get an all-in-one with streamer + a pair of active speakers. However, in my opinion and experience, it's the speakers that have the biggest influence on the overall sound and that's an area I'd always spend more money on than anything else.

Your first system was somewhat better than mine (and it looks like the trend has continued). As I posted here my first system comprised a Garrard SP25, Marantz 1050 and Wharfedale Denons, I can't fully remember what my tape deck was but I think it was the one that matched the amp. It was all I could afford and run a 750cc motorbike on a student grant.

These days, although I could afford a much better system, I simply don't spend enough time listening to music to make it sensible to spend thousands on it. Also I am also not sure that I am discerning enough to appreciate the difference between pretty good hifi and truly excellent hifi systems.

I quite agree that the speakers are the most important bit. They are, after all, the component that directly interacts with our ears. In fact this thread debates the case that all amplifiers sound the same. I'm not convinced that is true but in my view it is probably the component that has least impact on the overall experience as long as it has sufficient power to adequately drive the speakers. That's why I will try my existing amp with the new speakers before thinking about buying a new one.
 
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Your first system was somewhat better than mine (and it looks like the trend has continued). As I posted here my first system comprised a Garrard SP25, Marantz 1050 and Wharfedale Denons, I can't fully remember what my tape deck was but I think it the one that matched the amp. It was all I could afford and run a 750cc motorbike on a student grant.

These days, although I could afford a much better system, I simply don't spend enough time listening to music to make it sensible to spend thousands on it. Also I am also not sure that I am discerning enough to appreciate the difference between pretty good hifi and truly excellent hifi.

I quite agree that the speakers are the most important bit. They are, after all, the component that directly interacts with our ears. In fact this thread debates the case that all amplifiers sound the same. I'm not convinced that is true but in my view it is probably the component that has least impact on the overall experience as long as it has sufficient power to adequately drive the speakers. That's why I will try my existing amp with the new speakers before thinking about buying a new one.
Student grant, eh? Now you almost sound as old as me!;)

I'm not going to get drawn into arguments about differences between components, but using a digital amp with room EQ has definitely shown an improvement on what I had before, especially with Vinyl. The background silence on a good pressing is almost uncanny now.

Having said that, I've recently invested in what I hope will be the last CD player I ever own: a Denon DCD-2500, mainly because @gibbsy has been eulogising about it ever since he bought one. He won't stop!;)

Getting the Lyngdorf amp has raised the bar for my sources. I'm happy enough with my Linn Sondek, even though it's not super-duper specified, and I don't think anything will surpass my Nakamichi tape deck unless I spend stupid money (which I won't, not even on a Dragon). I'm also very happy with my headphones (Sennheiser HD 800S) and headphone amp (Questyle CMA-800R), so the Denon should finish off the system for good.

I know that the PMC's can be surpassed, but again it means spending stupid money probably for minimal gains, so now it's all about the music. If that's not a priority for you then you're absolutely right not to throw money at components, and motorbikes are expensive!

It will be interesting to read your thoughts about pairing an old amplifier with new speakers. The Marantz you mentioned is very highly rated on here, but I honestly don't know if the differences between it and your Technics is night and day. People often buy amps for power, but using the Lyngdorf has made me realise the importance of control and it's the small micro-details that matter just as much as being pinned to the wall.
 
Having said that, I've recently invested in what I hope will be the last CD player I ever own: a Denon DCD-2500, mainly because @gibbsy has been eulogising about it ever since he bought one. He won't stop!;)
Guilty as charged m'lud. :thumbsup:
 
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It will be interesting to read your thoughts about pairing an old amplifier with new speakers. The Marantz you mentioned is very highly rated on here, but I honestly don't know if the differences between it and your Technics is night and day. People often buy amps for power, but using the Lyngdorf has made me realise the importance of control and it's the small micro-details that matter just as much as being pinned to the wall.

I must admit I really hadn't considered bringing the Marantz 1050 out of retirement. I reckon it's been at least 35 years since it was last powered up. However, at 25w per channel it is right at the lower limit that Mission recommend for the QX-2s. The Technics amp is 40w per channel which is still at the lower end of the recommended range (25w to 120w) but is more likely to be enough as we don't listen to music at high volume any more and the room isn't huge.

I will report back how things go when I (eventually?) get the speakers delivered and installed.
 
The QX1 may be better suited to lower powered amps

That's probably right as Mission recommend an amp power range of 25w to 100w instead of 25w to 120w for the QX-2. However, I feel that the QX-2 is probably the better speaker and, if necessary, I'll upgrade my amp, maybe to either a Marantz pm6006 or, for the benefit of the integrated network streaming, a Yamaha RN 402D.
 
To the original question,
there are some interesting videos on you tube with regards to speaker positioning.
Take a look.
with one interview with the design engineer from Kef was describing how symmetry is very important to get the best stereo image
 
How Critical is Speaker Position?
Possibly very critical, but there no defined ruling on where they should be positioned. It all depends on your room and how it sounds to you.
Moving speakers around to get the best possible sound you like it part of the fun,
All these things like sharing the room with TV, other people, lots of furniture, glass, wooden floors etc all have an impact on your sound.
In an ideal world you will have a dedicated music room, if not - its all about compromising but have fun doing it!
 
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KEF Coda IIIs from circa 1985.

I used to borrow a pair from time to time circa 88/89, used to swap with Heybrook 1's with a mate.
Not a bad speaker for a smallish room.
 
I used to borrow a pair from time to time circa 88/89, used to swap with Heybrook 1's with a mate.
Not a bad speaker for a smallish room.

Indeed, they are not bad speakers. The only reason I want to change them is that you have to play them quite loud to get the bass to come through.

My wife bought them when she was a student and liked to listen to heavy rock music at an appropriately loud volume. We are both somewhat older and possibly wiser now and don't want to give what remains of our hearing too hard a time. What HiFi says the Mission QX-2s are good at low volumes which, these days, is what we both want.
 
What happens as a speaker gets nearer and nearer a boundary (wall) is that the Bass increases, you would think that would be a good thing, but what you hear is the Mid/High becoming more Recessed and Muddy, which is not a good thing.

I find that most people who say they can't move their speakers really can but they are locked into one way of thinking.

In my case, my TV/Equipment stand is about 8" forward of the wall, and when I place my speakers even with the front of the equipment cabinet, that leaves about 14" (35.6cm) behind the speaker. In my small room, that's about the best I can do, and it represents a good compromise between practical placement and good sound. Another 4" (10mm) forward would probably improve the sound, but the space is just too tight to be practical.

So, that's what you have to do, find a functional compromise between good sound and practical placement.

But under no circumstance should a speaker, regardless of the location of the ports, be pushed back against the wall. That is unnecessary, and it doesn't sound good.

A good test for anyone having doubt about placement should run this experiment. Pull the speakers between 1m and 2m into the room, away from object and from the side walls. If that improves the sound of the speakers, then you have a Placement problem. The solution is to find a compromise, as I indicated, between practical placement and good sound.

Steve/bluewizard
 
But under no circumstance should a speaker, regardless of the location of the ports, be pushed back against the wall. That is unnecessary, and it doesn't sound good.
I absolutely agree with this, so I was shocked when I bought a Lyngdorf amp with Room Perfect EQ built-in and the manual suggested precisely this!

Something to do with time domain inaccuracies or other - some technical gubbins that I have no interest in whatsoever - so I did move my speakers closer to the back wall but not all the way as they suggested.

Like you say, it's all a compromise anyway.
 
I absolutely agree with this, ...

Something to do with time domain inaccuracies or other -...

Like you say, it's all a compromise anyway.

Let me explain another example by way of a Photo I saw. In the photo was a room with a large area rug. The Equipment stand was set back about 6" from the edge of the Rug, and the speakers were back from the front of the equipment stand nearly back against the wall.

The person claimed that if he moved is speakers forward it would encroach into the room. But that space between the Front of the Speaker and the area rug was unused and wasted anyway. All he had to do was pull the speaker forward even with the front of the equipment cabinet or even a bit farther so the speakers were approaching the area rug, and the room doesn't really change at all.

This is what I mean by - locked into one way of thinking - moving the speaker forward simply uses space that was already wasted and unused. Relative to the rest of the room, nothing changes. People still can't walk in space that they couldn't walk in before. You still can't set things in space that you couldn't set things in before.

Visually it is actually better to move the speaker forward in this particular case. That way the Equipment Stand and the Speakers present a unified front to the room.

Here is my own room as an example. That space is 16ft x 16ft (4.9m x 4.9m).

Here is the Front View -

view


And here is the Side View - though please forgive the rat's nest of wire and cable -

view


You would never guess from the Front View that there was this much space behind the speakers and equipment cabinet.

The Front View presents a unified front to the room.

Obviously the room has some complications with a door on the Right and a corner fireplace on the Left. But this is about the best compromise for this room.

By the way, this is open floor-plan, so the space that the speakers are playing into is about 35ft. (10.7m). So, plenty of room for the sound to develop. Though I sit about 11ft (3.4m) from the nearest speaker.

But the underlying point is that having the speaker lined up with the front of the equipment cabinet does not make them look out of place. And I would rather have that wasted space was behind the speaker rather than in front of it.

Just some rambling.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Well, I've eventually managed to order a pair of QX-2s, in black, from Peter Tyson. The black ones seem to be in short supply at the moment. So, I will be able to start the speaker positioning experiment next week, as well as seeing if an old Technics amp can drive modern speakers adequately or if I have to upgrade that too.
 
I've recently invested in what I hope will be the last CD player I ever own: a Denon DCD-2500, mainly because @gibbsy has been eulogising about it ever since he bought one. He won't stop!;)
Hey Derek, now you've raised my curiosity.

Tell me, what is your rationale for improving CD sound by getting a new CD player, when your Lyngdorf is going to convert its analogue output into digital and back into analogue again? Or will you just be using the Denon as transport, and feeding the Lyndorf with its digital output? Have you tried the digital output of your previous CD player into the Lyngdorf? Or what about ripping the CD's to a server, and feeding the Lyndorf with a 'bit perfect' signal from that?
 

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