Marvel Vs DC

VisionMan

Well-known Member
This isn't a slag-fest thread as both are good in their own right and worthy of watching.

The string of Marvel movies have been a masterpiece of cinematic story telling. But DC? Wonder Woman and Shazam excepted, the rest of DC's movies have been awful. Yet DC's TV series are more than worth a watch, recommended even. I've always wondered how DC can get their TV series so right but movies so wrong?
 
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richp007

Distinguished Member
Unfortunately I sail in the boat that thinks 99% of the DC TV stuff is dreadful as well.

Also not a fan of Shazam.

I think the TV series' succeed though because they're kind of popcorn fodder really, leave your brain at the door kind of stuff. Are they more popular with teens and young adults? I suspect so.

When it comes to TV I like to get fully immersed in a series, watch something that makes me think. (Comedy aside of course). So I personally require a much better production value than I've ever seen with any of the DC releases.

Makes me sound like a snob, but I am actually a horrible TV snob :laugh:
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
This isn't a slag-fest thread as both are good in their own right and worthy of watching.

The string of Marvel movies have been a masterpiece of cinematic story telling. But DC? Wonder Woman and Shazam excepted, the rest of DC's movies have been awful. Yet DC's TV series are more than worth a watch, recommended even. I've always wondered how DC can get their TV series so right but movies so wrong?
Agree on that. DC films on the whole are very poor, but their TV is mostly decent.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Comic wise, DC have the better cast of characters IMO. I like Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman... they're all quite charismatic and complex. The villains (such as the Joker, Harley Quinn, Braniac) are mesmerising. The less popular super heroes like Shazam are extremely interesting.

Marvel is more colourful and charming. They have an extemely varied cast and if you throw the X-Men into the equation then I think they probably edge it.

Both universes have clear balance issues with Marvel having way too many reality bending overpowered mutants and DC having Superman and the Flash able to do anything they want when the time calls for it.



However on the big screen, I find DC to be inferior. Outside of the recent Nolan Batman films, Joker and the first half of Wonder Woman, DC are a clear class below Marvel in universe building, world building and especially special effects. I can normally in every single DC film pinpoint at least a couple of action scenes that I wish weren't there as they look terrible. Marvel on the other hand just gets it right.

Marvel's biggest strength is clearly the Avenger's series. Whilst Justice League seems to dilute a lot of DC character's personalities, in the Avengers all the characters have a beautiful lovable chemistry which is magnified. Iron Man is more Iron Man in the Avengers than Iron Man. However in Justice League, I found most characters to be very very watered down, lacking personality and having to sacrifice their actual values and normal responses for the sake of furthering the plot and a cheap laugh.

Its sad because I think casting wise DC struck gold with Gal Gadot but Superman and Batman both IMO need new actors. Superman needs a re-boot, and by a reboot I don't mean another origin story, I just mean sacking off the current cast and starting afresh. I thought Momoa as Aquaman was a great choice but Aquaman SEVERELY lacked any character development of the main character. It was a visual and audio orgasm but substance is lacking.

DC have a clear ace in the hole if they ever want to use it which is just to make Injustice into a film. The injustice video games are pretty much better than the Avenger's films.

Similarly they could just do Flashpoint Paradox as a live action film and it'd go head to head with Avenger's Endgame as one of the best films of all time.

Despite my praise for the Avengers, Endgame's emphasis on timetravel as a get out of jail clause didn't sit well with me and I prefer the way Injustice used time travel in the video game.

In terms of respect for their characters, I feel both disrespect their characters from time to time. Batman versus Superman should have been the best superhero movie of all time, featuring the two most iconic super heroes, but ended up being nothing more than average. Similarly I feel Thor and the Hulk have been relegated to comedic set pieces in films lately.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
Similarly they could just do Flashpoint Paradox as a live action film and it'd go head to head with Avenger's Endgame as one of the best films of all time.
Absolutely no chance. Avenger's Endgame was so good because it was a culmination of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Which had been slowly built up over many years with many excellent films.

However good a film may be that DC bring out, unless they suddenly start a cinematic universe of their own with decent films, a single film will never beat Endgame.
 

VisionMan

Well-known Member
Unfortunately I sail in the boat that thinks 99% of the DC TV stuff is dreadful as well.

Also not a fan of Shazam.
What? To put a child in a mans body AND give him superpowers? Its hilarious!
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Absolutely no chance. Avenger's Endgame was so good because it was a culmination of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Which had been slowly built up over many years with many excellent films.

However good a film may be that DC bring out, unless they suddenly start a cinematic universe of their own with decent films, a single film will never beat Endgame.

I love Flashpoint Paradox so I think it could be absolutely awesome.

Endgame was good but the time travel get out of jail card makes me lose a bit of respect for it. No doubt its a culmination of a lot of hard work from Marvel throughout the years, but the Marvel Cinematic Universe has its fair share of crap films too.

I hate the fact that we're forced to slowly introduce characters in introductory movies before getting to the juicy stuff. Injustice proved to me that you can throw people into the thick of it and they'll put together the pieces well enough.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
Most of the DC TV has been dirge IMO aimed at teens and tweens.

The movies have been poor as well with some bad casting choices and dull uninspiring scripts. I think the only one I like so far is WW.
I quite liked Affleck as an older Batman but Cavill is so wooden you could build a traditional farmyard barn out his personality. Overall the movies were poor, focusing on spectacle. destruction and CGI rather than plot, story and character. Interested to see Snyders cut when it comes out but the phrase "You can't polish a turd" springs to mind.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Whats that then?



Christ your hard to please.



Name them. Black Panther is accepted.



Oh you haven't watched or read Flashpoint Paradox?
Flashpoint Paradox is a storyline where Flash is transported to a timeline where his Mum didn't die (and he therefore didn't become The Flash. In this timeline, everything is slightly different. For example, he tries to gain the help of Batman in this timeline. He asks 'Bruce' to help him. Batman begins to pummel him. Again he asks Bruce. Batman says don't say that name to me. He says Bruce again. And then at this point Batman says 'how do you know my dead son's name'. So in that timeline, Bruce got shot and his Mum and Dad survived. His dad took up the mantle of Batman (albiet an angry Batman which kills) and his Mum was driven crazy and actually becomes the Joker. Similarly Wonder Woman and Aquaman rather than having an alliance are at total war with eachother. Superman crashed in DC rather than Kansas. He was found by the government, confined underground without sunlight and had tests done on him for his entire lifetime without ever fully realising the phenomenal power he had. etc. etc. This culminates in Wonder Woman literally killing people, like ripping their heads of killing people, Batman being a murderer, etc. etc.
. This could easily be fleshed out and made MUCH more cinematic too. It would also be such a good challenge to actresses like Gal Gadot to have to be a near entirely different persona.

Marvel Films which dissapointed me:
Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor Ragnork (some people liked the tone of this film, I want to rewatch it but I felt like some scenes like Hulk sacrificing himself to transform again was passed off as a joke and the camp AF villain)
Thor 2 (very average)
Hulk
Ant-Man (thought was average but charming, will re-watch in 3D)


I actually didn't mind Black Panther. One of the Captain America films, Thor 1; I find quite average too. There was also one Avenger's film which I kind of forced myself to like when I watched it because I love the Avengers. Can't remember which one. I think it might have been Age of Ultron but I still have very fond memories of it so I'm not entirely sure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE Marvel fan, and End-Game's 45 minutes is one of the best hours of cinema period. However, I don't think its some crazy pinnacle of storytelling that can't be bettered. The material is out there.

Its similar to how I kind of wish X-Men were part of the Marvel cinematic universe and we could have Onslaught finally hit the big screen. I want to see him utterly trash the Hulk to pieces (although I guess Thanos has done that now already...)

Heck, I still think Superhero movie wise the Batman Dark Knight is probably distinctly better as it has that extra bit of class rather than the charm Avenger's has.
 
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VisionMan

Well-known Member
I guess you generally don't have a high regard for Marvel movies then. Despite pretending to yourself you do, your post clearly states you don't.

Marvel Films which dissapointed me:

Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor Ragnork
Thor 2
Hulk
Ant-Man


Hey man, everyones entitled to an opinion which I don't agree with. :thumbsup: :D
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I guess you generally don't have a high regard for Marvel movies then. Despite pretending to yourself you do, your post clearly states you don't.

Marvel Films which dissapointed me:

Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor Ragnork
Thor 2
Hulk
Ant-Man


Hey man, everyones entitled to an opinion which I don't agree with. :thumbsup: :D
My love for Marvel extends past the films. I love the universe, the comics, the characters. Just as I like DC. I think where you've misconstrued my posts is that I see DC and Marvel for more than just whats depicted on a few Blockbuster films. However, just because I love a universe.. does not mean I can't critisise it.

Also FYI, I'm not disagreeing with your initial post. DC Films suck. Their TV shows, comics, animated films and animated series are better than their films. Its really sad.

I just don't think it'd take 10-20 years for them to better Endgame if they could sort their act out.

The problem with DC is they want to compete with Marvel at what Marvel do best. Marvel are charming, bright, animated, charismatic and colorful.

DC excel at what their characters do best. Dark, purposeful, torn. Look at Batman. He is a messed up guy who struggles to hold human relationships outside of his butler, in the comics has a child he doesn't know about and struggles to father, lets a murdering psychopath go free and kill people constantly (the Joker) because of a line he has vowed not to cross; he is calculating and even has plans in place to kill his best friend Superman if it comes to it. Joker paralysed Batgirl, sexually assaulted her (although the author a few years later did a U-turn on this), and then stripped her father and made him watch photos of it whilst trying to drive him crazy.

Simiarly you have Diana, this beast of a woman in the DC universe who is a vicous combat specialist who is known to go toe to toe with Superman.

Then we have Superman, a guy who is the strongest man in the world but also the most scared. He is a character ruled by fear; the fear of himself and what his powers might do, and with serious abandonment issues; luckily raised by the most caring and best parents known to man.

In Injustice, Superman goes head to head with the Joker. The Joker ends up blowing up his pregnant wife Lois and Metropilis (basically all of Superman's life). Superman ends up killing the Joker and becoming a tyranical villain who Batman has to take down. But at the same time, Superman blames Batman for letting the Joker get away with his murders for that long... Just giving an example of the darkness which DC has.

Don't get me wrong, Marvel has plenty of dark stuff too in their lockers if they want to use it but they haven't had to.

I digree though.. My point is those three characters cannot do charming, quick witted exchanges as good as Marvel's characters. Thats why DC constantly lose and their films mostly suck.

Justice League, Batman vs Superman are two of the biggest dissapointments ever.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Oh!
kenshingintoki

What movies do you like from the DC stable?

Not many live action films from DC that I like.

Batman 1989, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, Batman Dark Knight are excellent. Dark Knight Rises is good too. I liked the first half of Wonder Woman. Watchmen is good too.

I think Aquaman is brilliant from a visual/auditory perspective but extremely hollow in its character develpopment so distinctly average.

I have many more Marvel films I prefer to DC.

How about you?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Most of the DC TV has been dirge IMO aimed at teens and tweens.

The movies have been poor as well with some bad casting choices and dull uninspiring scripts. I think the only one I like so far is WW.
I quite liked Affleck as an older Batman but Cavill is so wooden you could build a traditional farmyard barn out his personality. Overall the movies were poor, focusing on spectacle. destruction and CGI rather than plot, story and character. Interested to see Snyders cut when it comes out but the phrase "You can't polish a turd" springs to mind.

Have you watched the Witcher on Netflix ?

I agree with Cavil being wooden. I found he was like that in Witcher too :(

Really like his interviews, seems like he knows the characters he plays inside out but it doesn't translate well to the screen IMO.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
Have you watched the Witcher on Netflix ?

I agree with Cavil being wooden. I found he was like that in Witcher too :(
I didn't mind him in that as Geralt, due to being a Witcher, doesn't have much of a personality. I also found him decent in Mission Impossible as again, he was supposed to be a stone-faced killer.

Other things like The Man from Uncle, Superman Movies and some other completely unforgettable movie I saw him in I can't even remember the plot of, never mind the name, he was dreadful and brought nothing to the film.
 

VisionMan

Well-known Member
Not many live action films from DC that I like.

Batman 1989, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, Batman Dark Knight are excellent. Dark Knight Rises is good too. I liked the first half of Wonder Woman. Watchmen is good too.

I think Aquaman is brilliant from a visual/auditory perspective but extremely hollow in its character develpopment so distinctly average.

I have many more Marvel films I prefer to DC.

How about you?
All the Avengers films
All the Spiderman films
Iron Man series is hit and miss, as is the Thor series.

But! If you didn't like or giggle at Thor Ragnarok or Antman you may seriously need a sense of humour transplant. Seriously man, when they are open again, go see your doctor immediately. Tops up! :thumbsup:
 

Skull n Bones

Well-known Member
I ended my Marvel adventure at Infinity Wars, DC will prob end with the Snyder cut of Justice League. Nolan's Batman trilogy is all that I own on bluray as my Superhero fatigue set in long ago. They are both as bad as each other to me now.
 
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VisionMan

Well-known Member
Henry Cavil as Superman - absolutely dire.

Henry Cavil as The Witcher - just superb.

Superman 1/10 I just can't get past the first 20 minutes. The Man of Steel is to be frank, awful.

The Witcher 8/10 - A role Henry Cavil battered the studio for years to get. And they gave it to him. A brilliant performance In this. The series overall is an 8, but his performance is a 9.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Henry Cavil as Superman - absolutely dire.

Henry Cavil as The Witcher - just superb.

Superman 1/10 I just can't get past the first 20 minutes. The Man of Steel is to be frank, awful.

The Witcher 8/10 - A role Henry Cavil battered the studio for years to get. And they gave it to him. A brilliant performance In this. The series overall is an 8, but his performance was a 9.
I thought he was distinctly average as Geralt. Crazy how opinions differ.

He doesn't really add up to my imagining of Geralt having read a few of the books, nor as good as the Geralt in the videogames.

I hope the show grows and improves but maybe my hopes were set too high for it to begin with.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I ended my Marvel adventure at Infinity Wars, DC will prob end with the Snyder cut of Justice League. Nolan's Batman trilogy is all that I own on bluray as my Superhero fatigue set in long ago. They are both as bad as each other to me now.
I hope the Snyder Cut is much better than the JL we have now. I don't think it'll match Infinity War/End Game.

I just LOVE Marvel's special effects.
 

VisionMan

Well-known Member
You know what I don't get about all this? Is the two completely different tacks from Marvel and DC.

One is interconnected, bright, optimistic and just a damn right fun universe to take part in. And the other is dark, dank, dire and depressing. But why? I honestly don't understand why DC took that root?

Wonder Woman on the other hand is a breath of fresh air. An easy superhero watch and solid 8/10, as is the total very good comedy film SHAZAM! Yeah, if you haven't seen it, its a blast. I wouldn't bother with the rest really, as they're not very good.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Most of the DC TV has been dirge IMO aimed at teens and tweens.

The movies have been poor as well with some bad casting choices and dull uninspiring scripts. I think the only one I like so far is WW.
I quite liked Affleck as an older Batman but Cavill is so wooden you could build a traditional farmyard barn out his personality. Overall the movies were poor, focusing on spectacle. destruction and CGI rather than plot, story and character. Interested to see Snyders cut when it comes out but the phrase "You can't polish a turd" springs to mind.
Literally stolen my thoughts :laugh:

Having just boxed off Nolan's Batman trilogy, I must say it's the pinnacle of the DCU since Superman 2.

It's worth remembering that for the genius of the MCU there were a few low points - Iron Man 3, Thor: Dark World, The Incredible Hulk, Guardians 2.

But the overall story and connection remains one of cinema's all time great achievements.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
You know what I don't get about all this? Is the two completely different tacks from Marvel and DC.

One is interconnected, bright, optimistic and just a damn right fun universe to take part in. And the other is dark, dank, dire and depressing. But why? I honestly don't understand why DC took that root?

Wonder Woman on the other hand is a breath of fresh air. An easy superhero watch and solid 8/10, as is the total very good comedy film SHAZAM! Yeah, if you haven't seen it, its a blast. I wouldn't bother with the rest really, as they're not very good.

Which films from DC are you specifically talking about in terms of darkness? I find Superman too dark, especially for the character who he is.

(However I think Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and the Dark Knight rises are exceptional).
 

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