Power or Integrated Amp for Home Theatre?

Roscovitch

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Can somebody with some knowledge on the subject have a go at answering this. I have a Denon X4500H which has pre-outs. So: since I really don't think it does very well for music I thought about using those pre-outs to add an external amp to drive the front two (a pair of tannoy XT6-F) so started to read what needed to be done. So although I get how this works, could someone tell me the reason I would choose (or not) a two channel "Power" amp over an "Integrated" amp with HT bypass? If I'm using a power amp to power the front two speakers does this now mean I now have more headroom and what is happening to the two amps I now have "assigned" to (in the case of the denon X4500H) a pair of rear surrounds but although assigned to them they are set to "None" as they don't exist in my system.
Thanks in advance.
 
Adding a power amp to a av amp means you'll get more power for the remaining channels, and if your av is a bit weedy, the dedicated all will drive the main speakers better.

However this does not improve 2 channel as typically avr are poor for two channel. For you to improve that, you will need a integrated stereo amp, or a stereo analogue pre amp and power amp.

HT bypass helps but is not essential. You just connect to regular line level input and set to preset position ie 12 o clock.

I'm using a av pre amp, and it's not great for 2 channel so I'll be adding a dedicated 2 channel preamp sometime.

If you add poweramps any amps on the Denon are unused you don't connect speakers to them.
 
As already said, a power amp will only "amplify" (increase power output) but the DAC will still be the AVR.

What source device(s) do you use for 2-channel? The integrated amp you need will depend on whether your source outputs are analogue (has its own DAC) or digital (Amp has a DAC).
 
You could add a Three channel amp as those are the most important and heavily used channels which your Saps Denon power.

If you do add a stereo integrated or stereo pre you may need to get a decent dac too, I'd you use nasty analogue sources say onboard pc soundcard analogue out. As improvement in pre/power is held back by poor sources. Like myself I'll need a dac also, unless you get a 2ch pre/2ch integrated with built in dac, these do exist so that is one option.
 
Before adding extra power amps or any other kit or taking advice on what to change/add, it might be best to clarify what you mean by "I really don't think it does very well for music".

You may find it's just your room / speaker placement colouring the sound.

Unless you're regularly hitting the Denon's full output and running out of power to drive your speakers adding an extra power amp will likely gain you very little benefit.

Your speakers have a sensitive of 90db. That means that at 1 metre from them you should be hearing music at 90db (ie. fairly loud) when driven by just 1 watt (in practice you'll want more than a 1w amp but the basic principle is true). To double the 'perceived' output you need a 10db increase, which will roughly take 10 times the watts ie. 10w. To double it again you need a 100w amp (which is where most hi-fi amps sit) and to double again you'll need a 1000w amp and so on. The main reason for adding power amps is if you really need that final — doubling in perceived sound output — jump in SPL afforded by moving from a 100w channel amp to a 1000w channel amp. Those high wattage amps tend to be larger and generate more heat that a 100w amp and hence the need their own enclosures.

If you have a large room, sit far from your speakers, have inefficient drivers or just need lots of SPL then you have no option but to add racks of power amps. But there is little gain in moving from a 80w amp to a 100w amp, it's a rounding error as far as SPL output is concerned.
 
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Before adding extra power amps or any other kit or taking advice on what to change/add, it might be best to clarify what you mean by "I really don't think it does very well for music".
For two channel listening the Denon doesn't produce the kind of sound I know the tannoys are capable of. The AVR is great for HT but the sound stage in my room was much more dynamic and sweeter (particularly at low volumes) when I had the tannoys driven by an old Audio innovations series 500. It was a completely different sound. So now that I have the Denon hooked up for HT and have since sold (shouldn't have) the Audio innovations I'm looking to hook the thing up to play as sweetly as I know it can but with whatever I do integrated into the HT set up. I may add that I'm also now streaming via Tidal from iPhone to the HEOS on the Denon mostly.
 
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For two channel listening the Denon doesn't produce the kind of sound I know the tannoys are capable of. The AVR is great for HT but the sound stage in my room was much more dynamic and sweeter (particularly at low volumes) when I had the tannoys driven by an old Audio innovations series 500. It was a completely different sound. So now that I have the Denon hooked up for HT and have since sold (shouldn't have) the Audio innovations I'm looking to hook the thing up to play as sweetly as I know it can but with whatever I do integrated into the HT set up. I may add that I'm also now streaming via Tidal from iPhone to the HEOS on the Denon mostly.

Ah that makes more sense now..

If you were previously driving them with a valve amp then the amp would certainly have had an effect on the sound and/or had some degree of inherent EQ.

I still don't think adding a regular power amp will be the answer, as modern class D or A/B amps aim to be transparent. So you're likely to just get a small increase in SPL but not a change of sound.
 
That Denon has 76w of power 7 channels driven. If you add 2 channel so Denon is then 5 channels used it goes upto 96w.
 
Ah that makes more sense now..

If you were previously driving them with a valve amp then the amp would certainly have had an effect on the sound and/or had some degree of inherent EQ.

I still don't think adding a regular power amp will be the answer, as modern class D or A/B amps aim to be transparent. So you're likely to just get a small increase in SPL but not a change of sound.
Could you make a recommendation bearing in mind that I don't want to have to use a different remote for switching to two channel listening? Appreciate your input.
 

You will need another remote. to control the integrated amp and switch input.

Unless you buy a power amplifier.
 

You will need another remote. to control the integrated amp and switch input.

Unless you buy a power amplifier.
Okay. Now we are back to the Power Amp :) Explain please and excuse my ignorance.
 
A power amp is just a dumb box, a amplfiier. No pre amp, no volume. Just on/off and maybe trigger to switch on and off.


Useful if you have

A) weedy av amplifier
b) like it loud
C) have inefficient and hard to drive speakers
D) driving signal full range relevant to a and c
E) considering av pre later
F) want to have more power to remaining channels.
G) large room
H) don't want to risk damaging speakers with insufficient power due to clipping.

Reason for buying a power amp can be one or more from the above.

If your av pre is crap for 2ch music, and it sounds you have done some testing as had a integrated tube amp, then a power amp won't improve 2ch sound quality.
 
Adding a stereo integrated amp to your system is a simple job of taking the left and right pre outs from your Denon into a integrated amps CD input,or a ht bypass input. Wire up the speakers to the integrated amp.

If the integrated amp doesn't have HT bypass, change to cd input. Set volume on the integrated with a predetermined level marked out (calibrated amp to Denon)

If the integrated amp has HT bypass then you don't need to change volume or input as HT bypass converts the integrated amp to a stereo power amplifier.

One amp I know that has HT bypass is tag McLaren 60irv
 
Okay. thanks for that. That explains that clearly. So all that remains now is.........what do I need to do to integrate a decent sound out of this system for two channel listening with minimum pain :)
 
Tag 60irv or similar would be easiest. Look at that list above is HT is desirable

I'm using a audiolab 8000q and that doesn't have a ht bypass so change input, and adjust volume. Not really a big deal. For the upgrade in sound quality over the Av pre it's worth it.
 
However the HT bypass is more complicated I'd you have a stereo integrated and power (biamping) On HT bypass, pre out from the integrated was disabled.

So I had to use cd input, and set volume, even though the integrated had HT bypass. As I only got sound from the treble drivers (the internal integrated amp) I got no sound from the external power amp that was driving the bass driver.
 
So what about the source? If I add say an audiolab 8300A which I believe has HT bypass. I'm still using the DAC from the Denon. Is adding the audiolab going to make a difference to my sound when listening to two channels only?
 
New audiolabs are crap don't touch them.
I'd you add a integrated amp, then all stereo sources go to the integrated amp. Whether analogue from CDP, or a off board dac. The Denon stays off.
 
What is the AV direct on the Cyrus? Shit just as I thought I was out of the woods now I'm thinking "Class" D......."Class A" ..........Jesus! Somebody shoot me :) Seriously though......with a budget of about £1500 what would you add to this system? Thanks.
 
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HT Bypass
 
Not sure why Class D is a bad thing but there are not many that will have BT (OP streams Tidal from iPhone) and HT bypass..........
 
Fantastic. Thanks one and all for the amazing response. If in the meantime anyone has any other recommendations I'll certainly look them up and do some homework. thanks.
 
Cyrus are offering a free home trial at the moment, talk to your chosen retailer. If you get one, let us know what you think of it.
 

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