Scottish IndyRef2

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 187 50.3%
  • No

    Votes: 185 49.7%

  • Total voters
    372
Oh, the irony. A leaked Tory memo advising seeking the EU's help to stop the break-up of the UK:

Being reported elsewhere that they'll beg the EU to combat the unprecedented support for the SNP and help to block a ref which is hilarious in itself, they will literally stoop to any level to thwart Scottish democracy
 
Being reported elsewhere that they'll beg the EU to combat the unprecedented support for the SNP and help to block a ref which is hilarious in itself, they will literally stoop to any level to thwart Scottish democracy

My favourite part of that story is this :laugh: As if you think what's going on with the IMB at the moment, it's all like a plot from an episode of Yes Minister.

I have this funny feeling being out of the EU will actually see us grovelling to them more than when we were in it 🤔
 
Being reported elsewhere that they'll beg the EU to combat the unprecedented support for the SNP and help to block a ref which is hilarious in itself, they will literally stoop to any level to thwart Scottish democracy
The article is here:

My favourite bit is:
Scottish Tories to launch “a hard-hitting, attack-focused” campaign against First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.
:facepalm: This is the Tories all over - dishonest, rhetoric fuelled nastiness. Thankfully it will fail due to the incompetence of the current batch of Tories.

Scotland needs to be rid of this crooked, inept Westminster regime now.
 
Posted in the Boris thread too, but this is one of those excellent compilation articles from the FT they throw out every now and then. Essentially about the impending disintegration of the Union.

Never have we been so collectively weak whilst under such an illusion of strength.


Thread here -

 
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Well, this Daily Fail article has it all - a new Tory unit to counter Nicola Sturgeon, a bit of public sector hate, a little knock at Wales and - best of all - praise for Johnson as the man with the skillset to save the Union. 😂


The case for Scottish Independence strengthens by the day!
 
Well, this Daily Fail article has it all - a new Tory unit to counter Nicola Sturgeon, a bit of public sector hate, a little knock at Wales and - best of all - praise for Johnson as the man with the skillset to save the Union. 😂


The case for Scottish Independence strengthens by the day!

Johnson. The man with the skillset.

tenor-3.gif


(Used this gif a few times already today).

Seriously though, it's really not like they're even trying to keep the Union together anymore....
 
Well, this Daily Fail article has it all - a new Tory unit to counter Nicola Sturgeon, a bit of public sector hate, a little knock at Wales and - best of all - praise for Johnson as the man with the skillset to save the Union. 😂


The case for Scottish Independence strengthens by the day!

As per Rich's post it really is laughable, I can't put it any better than this 👇

 
We are in a world of negative politics where you bash the other guy and never blow your own trumpet
 
Still seems very low to me. I would have thought that now more than ever we'd be seeing completely overwhelming numbers in favour of Independence.
 
Been a while since I popped in here, anything happened yet :D

As for Poll's, didn't they indicate Labour would win in the most recent ones?
 
Still seems very low to me. I would have thought that now more than ever we'd be seeing completely overwhelming numbers in favour of Independence.
That poll was back in mid-September. It was run by Theresa May's old polling expert, which is why I thought it was of interest.
 
Still seems very low to me. I would have thought that now more than ever we'd be seeing completely overwhelming numbers in favour of Independence.

I'm sure I've seen a few higher, into the 60's. My guess is it's about the 60 mark. Plenty of time for that to go higher :laugh:

Speaking of which I need to make preparations. Will the footy section accept me as a Liverpool supporter from Scotland? Or is too far away? :D
 
Been a while since I popped in here, anything happened yet :D
The elections are in May psikey, so that's the date you need to keep an eye on.

You are right about polls of course - they can be wrong. And the Scottish Tories may yet confound everyone and get a majority at Holyrood next May. I think it unlikely though and I suspect it is more probable we will see the SNP come out on top.
 
The elections are in May psikey, so that's the date you need to keep an eye on.

You are right about polls of course - they can be wrong. And the Scottish Tories may yet confound everyone and get a majority at Holyrood next May. I think it unlikely though and I suspect it is more probable we will see the SNP come out on top.

Scottish parliamentary elections in May? So if SNP maintain or increase their vote you think they then pile on pressure to Westminster for another Referendum and if its a no again launch a legal challenge ?

Do they have any legal option to force it? I accept that Politically it looks bad if no Tories in Scotland deciding Scotland's future.
 
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The elections are in May psikey, so that's the date you need to keep an eye on.

You are right about polls of course - they can be wrong. And the Scottish Tories may yet confound everyone and get a majority at Holyrood next May. I think it unlikely though and I suspect it is more probable we will see the SNP come out on top.

Population of Scotland & Yorkshire is about same and until recently Yorkshire not fans of Tories but we don't have a legal right to ask for independence as far as I know. Do Scotland have a mechanism to overturn a Westminster NO to independence?

Maybe we should have a referendum to be Danish again :D


Viking Yorkshire

The Vikings captured York in 866 and shortly afterward a separate kingdom of Yorkshire was founded. The Danish kingdom of Yorkshire lasted until 954 when it was recaptured by the English.

The English treat us bad too in the past

In 1066 Harald Hardrada, the king of Norway, invaded England. His army sailed along the Humber and the Ouse. However after they landed they were utterly defeated by the English at the battle of Stamford Bridge. Shortly afterwards William Duke of Normandy won the battle of Hastings and was crowned king of England. In 1086 the people of Yorkshire rose in rebellion. William marched to York and built a fort there. However when he left the area in 1069 the North rose in rebellion again. This time William took drastic action. His men burned all the stores of food and the crops in the fields. They also slaughtered domestic animals and destroyed farm tools. This 'scorched earth' policy was called the Harrying of the North. As a result of it many people in Yorkshire starved to death.

I didn't know this !! In the early 14th century Yorkshire also suffered in a long war with the Scots.
 
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Do Scotland have a mechanism to overturn a Westminster NO to independence?
This is a very interesting question and the answer seems to be yes.

Self determination is entrenched in international law and embedded at the individual level in the European Convention of Human Rights, which has direct effect in UK through the Human Rights Act and the Scotland Acts.

One path to overturn a Conservative rejection of a Section 30 Order then could be:
1. Achieve a nationalist majority at Holyrood next May.
2. Request a section 30 order again and if rejected,
3. Call a referendum on the question 'Should the Scottish people have the right of self determination?'. If the Scottish people vote that they should,
4. Commence legal proceedings against the UK Government under the Convention.
5. If the court case is won, the Court of Session (unlike the equivalent court in England) has the power to assume the powers of the Government and grant a Section 30 Order even if the Government itself opposes it.
6. A Scottish Referendum is held on Scottish Government terms.

The path is there is law. The only question is whether the people of Scotland want independence or not. Cameron realised this which is why he agreed to the referendum in 2014. The current UK Government is so inept they will probably fight to the bitter end making so many enemies on the way that independence is made much more likely.
 
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This is a very interesting question and the answer seems to be yes.

Self determination is entrenched in international law and embedded at the individual level in the European Convention of Human Rights, which has direct effect in UK through the Human Rights Act and the Scotland Acts.

Isn't Westminster already creating policy for local law to take precedent over International Law (different area I know)?
Isn't plan to leave the European Convention of Human Rights?

Ref: We do not currently have a British Bill of Rights. This was included in the Conservative government’s 2015 election manifesto. It was planned as new legislation to replace the Human Rights Act.
 
Cameron also realised if Devo Max was on the referendum (as requested by Salmond) then he would lose.

If majority of Scots want to leave the Union why stop them? Its the same as trying to stop Brexit, same principle. If majority want it then it should happen.

PS. Are you actually Fat or is that your cat called jez that is fat :D
 
Isn't Westminster already creating policy for local law to take precedent over International Law (different area I know)?
Isn't plan to leave the European Convention of Human Rights?

Ref: We do not currently have a British Bill of Rights. This was included in the Conservative government’s 2015 election manifesto. It was planned as new legislation to replace the Human Rights Act.
Okay, a few issues to explain here:

1. England does have a Bill of Rights - it was passed in 1689 and remains extant! It doesn't help our conversation here though!

2. "Local law to take precedence over international law". International law only has direct effect in the UK through our own laws. The European Convention has effect through, amongst others, the Human Rights Act and the Scotland Act. The latter embeds the European Convention in Scottish law and therefore all Scottish legal provisions - be they Acts or Executive Orders from Westminster or Holyrood must comply (this is not the case in England where the Government withheld some powers mainly for Defence purposes). Repealing or overwriting the Scotland Act - which was approved by a referendum in 1997 - would be challenged under the Convention and blocked at the Court of Session unless accompanied by a corresponding referendum. Succinctly, the Scotland Act - as substantive law - could be used to block tentative legislation that did not comply with it unless it was being overwritten in the same manner, namely by a pre-legislative referendum.

3. The Tories may well leave the European Convention and repeal access to those rights for people in England and Wales (although such individuals could still take the UK to court as happened before 1998). But Scotland is different due to the more complex legal framework - it would be a massive constitutional battle!
 
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Okay, a few issues to explain here:

1. England does have a Bill of Rights - it was passed in 1689 and remains extant! It doesn't help our conversation here though!

2. "Local law to take precedence over international law". International law only has direct effect in the UK through our own laws. The European Convention has effect through, amongst others, the Human Rights Act and the Scotland Act. The latter embeds the European Convention in Scottish law and therefore all Scottish legal provisions - be they Acts or Executive Orders from Westminster or Holyrood must comply (this is not the case in England where the Government withheld some powers mainly for Defence purposes). Repealing or overwriting the Scotland Act - which was approved by a referendum in 1997 - would be challenged under the Convention and blocked at the Court of Session unless accompanied by a corresponding referendum. Succinctly, the Scotland Act - as substantive law - could be used to block tentative legislation that did not comply with it unless it was being overwritten in the same manner, namely by a pre-legislative referendum.

3. The Tories may well leave the European Convention and repeal access to those rights for people in England and Wales (although such individuals could still take the UK to court as happened before 1998). But Scotland is different due to the more complex legal framework - it would be a massive constitutional battle!

You know your stuff :smashin:

Looks like a long legal battle then unless Boris agrees from May onwards.
 
Why would Scotland vote for independence? We're all the same, we're all one peoples. England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland (and the outlying islands) united as one.
 

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