USA - racism

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nheather

Distinguished Member
I still maintain that you need to look at all the data to draw meaningful conclusions.

For example

Population of the US
Black - 13%
White - 63%
Latino - 1.8%

National Basketball Association players
Black - 74.4%
White - 23.3%
Latino - 1.8%

I could use these numbers to ask why is there a disproportionate number of black NBA players - I could use it to suggest that the association is riddled with racism, or I could say that there are other reasons that are not covered by this data.

For the record, I do think the US has a race problem, but I don't think it is as widespread nor institutionalised in the nation or the police force as people are trying to make out.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Can you provide the link to your stats.

Everything I see online is the opposite. Black deaths are disproportionate to their population size
Eg
View attachment 1309337
View attachment 1309338
Can post more charts, but they all show the same.

Say (theoretically speaking) if every single white person in China was shot dead by the police this very second.
I’m still pretty confident I could make the declaration that ‘More Chinese people are killed by police than White people in China’, despite the fact that they’ve killed every White person in the country.
Black people (for whatever reason) are disproportionately involved in violent crime in the US (52% of homicides against 13% of the population), therefore disproportionately likely to be involved in potentially lethal situations with the police. When you adjust for that, it turns out a white cop is no more likely to shoot than a cop of other ethnicity. It may even be less likely.



So is it possible that the excessive use of force (not necessarily deadly) towards black suspects is based on fear of violence?

Not that this even vaguely justifies the horrific injustice of George Floyd, but maybe systemic racism isn't the only factor at play and its not just as simple as 'whites are just racist'. Ive heard of a lot of black social commentators speak about issues within the black community; such as fatherlessness, low graduation rates, gang culture and how those things can lead to crime. Its a complex issue.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Not for one second saying I agree with any bad actions taken any member of the police or other such teams of people who's job it is to keep order.
I will admit to being a little frustrated, if that's the word by the media's portrayal of almost every victim.

Oh he was a lovely man/lady, full of fun, a pleasure to be around, a loving family, great character etc etc.
You never seem to hear, yes, he was shot by the officer. Nasty piece of work, always in trouble, up to no good, getting into fights, etc etc.

Why is pretty much everyone always an innocent angel when they get injured/killed by a member of the police/other service?

Just an observation which does grate a tiny bit with me, every time something like this happens.

With regards this latest sad incident do we actually know anything?
A gentle sweet large black guy who used a fake 10 dollar bill and refused to get into the police vehicle as he said he was claustrophobic & offered no real resistance, so the police knelt on his neck, knowing cameras all around till he died is all I've seen in the media so far.

To me that kinda feels like it does not all add up.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Not for one second saying I agree with any bad actions taken any member of the police or other such teams of people who's job it is to keep order.
I will admit to being a little frustrated, if that's the word by the media's portrayal of almost every victim.

Oh he was a lovely man/lady, full of fun, a pleasure to be around, a loving family, great character etc etc.
You never seem to hear, yes, he was shot by the officer. Nasty piece of work, always in trouble, up to no good, getting into fights, etc etc.

Why is pretty much everyone always an innocent angel when they get injured/killed by a member of the police/other service?

Just an observation which does grate a tiny bit with me, every time something like this happens.

With regards this latest sad incident do we actually know anything?
A gentle sweet large black guy who used a fake 10 dollar bill and refused to get into the police vehicle as he said he was claustrophobic & offered no real resistance, so the police knelt on his neck, knowing cameras all around till he died is all I've seen in the media so far.

To me that kinda feels like it does not all add up.
It happens so frequently that it's only really news when the person murdered / killed by police is (likely) to be an innocent.

'Police kill career criminal' would hardly get a mention in the US. Certainly nationally.
 

BB3Lions

Distinguished Member
Confusion about stats. Both sides wanting to give its political sense of aggression for and against.

One thing is accurate to say. You don't burn your neighbourhood down, you don't steal from your neighbours, your community, your friends.

What's going on now is disgraceful. If it carries on, Trump will send in the Army. Then it will hit the fan.
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
Confusion about stats. Both sides wanting to give its political sense of aggression for and against.

One thing is accurate to say. You don't burn your neighbourhood down, you don't steal from your neighbours, your community, your friends.

What's going on now is disgraceful. If it carries on, Trump will send in the Army. Then it will hit the fan.
The governor seems to think the majority of looters/vandals are from out of state (not sure what evidence he has to back that), thus it’s not their own neighbourhood that they’re trashing.

Some people are also obviously using it as an excuse to go on the rampage as well - eg why would you vandalise the CNN headquarters when it was a black CNN reporter that was unjustly arrested? What’s their beef with CNN?
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Confusion about stats. Both sides wanting to give its political sense of aggression for and against.

One thing is accurate to say. You don't burn your neighbourhood down, you don't steal from your neighbours, your community, your friends.

What's going on now is disgraceful. If it carries on, Trump will send in the Army. Then it will hit the fan.
Wasn't there a policeman in civilian clothing smashing windows and inciting violence? Or did I dream that?
 

Ono

Well-known Member
One thing is accurate to say. You don't burn your neighbourhood down, you don't steal from your neighbours, your community, your friends.
This was HK last year (and still going on in spats). The rioting, no longer protesting, in the name of democracy became a norm and the government and police were demonised by everyone no matter what they tried to stop it.

The west supported the "protests" as it was for democracy, so it will be interesting to see if that same support continues here when in their own backyard and for black lives.
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
With regards this latest sad incident do we actually know anything?
A gentle sweet large black guy who used a fake 10 dollar bill and refused to get into the police vehicle as he said he was claustrophobic & offered no real resistance, so the police knelt on his neck, knowing cameras all around till he died is all I've seen in the media so far.

To me that kinda feels like it does not all add up.
The prosecution criminal complaint is quite revealing. Supposed to be based on the bodycam footage.

One particular detail is particularly harrowing - after about 6 mins of kneeling on his neck, George Floyd becomes unresponsive. One of the officers tries to find a pulse & says to the other officers that he can’t find a pulse. Nobody does anything about it though & Chauvin continues kneeling on his neck for another 2 & a half minutes after he had no pulse!
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
America will never get over it's racism issue. It's merely a question of how much it can be abated.

What we're seeing currently though is like this generation's Rodney King moment. Many protesting likely weren't even born back then, or too young to remember.

Here and now though it is a very dangerous cocktail of mass unemployment, angry people, a hot climate, and an ineffectual and purposely divisive leader - as well as the small matter of the virus still being around.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
The prosecution criminal complaint is quite revealing. Supposed to be based on the bodycam footage.

One particular detail is particularly harrowing - after about 6 mins of kneeling on his neck, George Floyd becomes unresponsive. One of the officers tries to find a pulse & says to the other officers that he can’t find a pulse. Nobody does anything about it though & Chauvin continues kneeling on his neck for another 2 & a half minutes after he had no pulse!
That's shocking, and yet at the same time so puzzling.
Shall we assume the authorities had zero prior knowledge of this gentleman?

It begs the question if he is as he's being played out to be, a totally innocent man, who simply tried to use counterfeit money (perhaps unwittingly, or perhaps multiple times, as we have no info)
Why would you as an officer do this, given you know video is being recorded, and why would fellow officers allow the officer to carry on with this unnecessary action on a random, otherwise innocent man?

It's like we are missing some important parts of the jigsaw here.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
That's shocking, and yet at the same time so puzzling.
Shall we assume the authorities had zero prior knowledge of this gentleman?

It begs the question if he is as he's being played out to be, a totally innocent man, who simply tried to use counterfeit money (perhaps unwittingly, or perhaps multiple times, as we have no info)
Why would you as an officer do this, given you know video is being recorded, and why would fellow officers allow the officer to carry on with this unnecessary action on a random, otherwise innocent man?

It's like we are missing some important parts of the jigsaw here.
The piece of the jigsaw you seem to be missing is the one that tells you the cop was racist.

Empowered by a racist President to use his position as an officer to exert his 'dominance'. And he didn't give a sh*t what happened to Floyd.
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
Even if George Floyd wasn’t innocent - if he was no threat (being handcuffed behind his back, on the floor, & not resisting) there’s no reason to do this.

I honestly do not know what is going through those officer’s minds. They may be able to argue that they thought he was faking it & they didn’t realise that he really couldn’t breathe...but when another cop says he has no pulse?!?

Surely one of them should have had the common sense to at least do something other than to keep kneeling on him?
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Even if George Floyd wasn’t innocent - if he was no threat (being handcuffed behind his back, on the floor, & not resisting) there’s no reason to do this.

I honestly do not know what is going through those officer’s minds. They may be able to argue that they thought he was faking it & they didn’t realise that he really couldn’t breathe...but when another cop says he has no pulse?!?

Surely one of them should have had the common sense to at least do something other than to keep kneeling on him?
And that's why he's been charged with murder.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
And that's why he's been charged with murder.
Only third degree though I believe. Should undoubtedly be second degree given the evidence apparently. And that's what I believe the family want.

Likely why we're also getting the heavy protests of course.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
The piece of the jigsaw you seem to be missing is the one that tells you the cop was racist.

Empowered by a racist President to use his position as an officer to exert his 'dominance'. And he didn't give a sh*t what happened to Floyd.
Well indeed.
Many people are racist, more than we'd like to admit, and some of the most racist people are those who are usually at the receiving end of racism. But that aside.
Being racist, does not instantly mean you are totally stupid either.
By stupid I mean, kneeling on someone's neck when they offer no resistance, whilst being filmed and witnessed by other officers also filming, and members of the public who may also be filming you.

It takes a majorly stupid person to basically screw themselves up/life up on video in broad daylight as they hate blacks, let's say.
Perhaps the officer had a really bad experience/day, this happened, he saw red, lost the plot, and acted without thinking, which I know does happen.
If it was at night, with no-one around then sure, he may think some racist payback time, but in that scenario as described.
He's screwed his life now that's for sure.
Be interesting to find out why he did this terrible act.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
^ Really crazy isn't it, to try and understand why the police would act in this manner.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
The piece of the jigsaw you seem to be missing is the one that tells you the cop was racist.

Empowered by a racist President to use his position as an officer to exert his 'dominance'. And he didn't give a sh*t what happened to Floyd.
A bit of conjecture on your part. Maybe it was racism, maybe it was a personal grudge between the two men, maybe he was just a thug on a power trip (the latter sounds like the most likely based on what we've learned about the man).

There is no evidence his actions were 'empowered' by the President. You are adding to something that is already unimaginably awful and there's no need. Keep to the facts. Riding on emotion is what is causing the rioting and looting that will result in even more destroyed lives.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
A bit of conjecture on your part. Maybe it was racism, maybe it was a personal grudge between the two men, maybe he was just a thug on a power trip (the latter sounds like the most likely based on what we've learned about the man).

There is no evidence his actions were 'empowered' by the President. You are adding to something that is already unimaginably awful and there's no need. Keep to the facts. Riding on emotion is what is causing the rioting and looting that will result in even more destroyed lives.
You are entitled to your opinion on the incident, I have formed mine. Regardless, what will remain after this is the deeply racist underbelly that has always existed in America. I strongly suspect it will worsen further under another 4 years of this administration.

If you want to ignore the last 4 years of racist rhetoric and bile from this President though, and it's effect on the American people then that's upto you. No emotion from me, just eyes open to what makes him tick. That being empowering his fan base to believe they are superior and will help him 'Make America Great Again." Just like he believes he is superior to everyone else. He's a textbook narcissist. If you've followed his actions and remarks the last 4 years, this should be clear as crystal. You don't even have to look further back than the last few days to be honest.

What's caused the rioting and looting is a man being unlawfully killed by an officer. And because the man is black and the officer is white. Followed by the inadequate response to that event. Further fuelled by anger over job losses, the heat. Its all a dangerous cocktail, as I've already mentioned.

(I don't agree with the looting or the rioting either by the way, I agree with the remarks in the video I posted above. It's not the way to solve things and I hope it stops ASAP).

But in order to have a conversation about racism in America, you need to be willing to include the actions/inaction of any US administration, including of course the current one. Which is the most relevant to the current situation, and there's no question it's the most openly hostile for many a year.

Trump has helped to lift the lid on many people's racism as they now see it as ok; normalised by their Commander-in-Chief. He's been on the campaign trail the last few months, and he's doubling down on galvanising his fanbase. Instead of attempting to fan the flame's he's stoking them.

That's the empowerment.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
This is a great vid and highlights the inherent bias of the American criminal justice system

It's not just that there's no leadership on the issues, it's the brazen way Trump has deliberately weaponised immigration and created a hostile environment that breeds racist sentiment. Awakening further the divisions that already existed. To an alarming degree as well.
 
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