Whats wrong about wanting to be the bad guys ?

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I noticed this morning that Medal of Honor is getting some 'bad' press regarding the ability of playing the Taliban. Rather than talking about the rights and wrongs of it all. Whats wrong with wanting to be the bad guys ?

I grew up in Belfast, I grew up in an area that was highly influenced by a "Republican Army" aka IRA. I grew up with friends that had family and connections that did things or so they said. I also know people who spent time in the English Army and spent most of the time in Belfast.

In film its far different. If anyone is watching sons of anarchy you will note the Irish connection.

Why have I never seen a game to have some IRA bad guy ? I have went sometimes wow how funny would it be with my voice on live talking to some yank about blowing something up :confused: :rolleyes: But then again I see it as a game. Thats it just a game. I played Americans and Germans when I was a kid it was mainly in the graveyard. Which was the place than mainly most soldiers where laid to rest from the same war. But at the time I never knew. I was too young and I didn't even know about girls and the real A-Team was still on TV. No kid wanted to be the English either. To me it was just an option.

So does anyone else have a game that they would like to play as the bad guy ?

*Mod note if this is in the wrong place or gets OTT please feel free to kick it.
 
It's a complex one. Although you can say "it's just a video game", when you're dealing with subjects with a link to historical reality, you can't help but link the actions of the player to the ideology that the real-life equivalent believes in. So, playing as the Taliban would possibly leave a bad taste in the mouth as it has links to brutality, mistreatment of citizens/lack of human rights, and terrorism. Likewise, playing as the IRA would make me think about sectarianism, violence against innocent people, and again, terrorism.

MW2 got serious grief for what many saw as a gratuitous scene in an airport, yet even that had no link to reality, it was based on a fictitious Russian terrorist with no equivalent counterpart in real life. The next logical step in the controversy stakes seems to be to up the ante by utilising real-world terrorists and giving the player control of them.

Sure, you can say it's just a game, but it still wouldn't sit right with me. I like to get immersed in my games, and I'd hate to be playing a game where I felt bad for slaughtering the "enemy" when the enemy happened to be innocent people. Also as I said, when the background to a group is founded on an oppressive ideology, this isn't something I as a gamer want to align myself with.

Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much... :D
 
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Playing bad guys can be great fun - Dungeon Keeper being a perfect example.

Personally, I've played so many games where I kill loads of different people that I don't really see it as 'good' and 'bad', just 'us' vs 'them'. To me, the new Medal of Honour will be the same.

However, I have no connections with the army, and no-one I know does either. I can only imagine the horror that some soldiers experience/ have experienced. I can fully understand the disgust that these people might have for a game that they may think glorifies or ? what they have seen or experienced themselves.

? = a word that I know I know, but can't think of at them moment. I will replace it when I know it. If you think you might know it, then let me know.
 
Infamous on the ps3 was more fun playing the bad guy, tho ruined slightly cos the special powers weren't as good on evil. All the same great fun.
 
Playing bad guys can be great fun - Dungeon Keeper being a perfect example.

Personally, I've played so many games where I kill loads of different people that I don't really see it as 'good' and 'bad', just 'us' vs 'them'. To me, the new Medal of Honour will be the same.

However, I have no connections with the army, and no-one I know does either. I can only imagine the horror that some soldiers experience/ have experienced. I can fully understand the disgust that these people might have for a game that they may think glorifies or ? what they have seen or experienced themselves.

? = a word that I know I know, but can't think of at them moment. I will replace it when I know it. If you think you might know it, then let me know.

? = trivialises ?

I see what you're saying and from a pure gameplay perspective I have no problem with playing the bad guy. There are loads of games with anti-heroes that I've thoroughly enjoyed. However I think where I run into difficulty is - as I mentioned above - when the playable characters are based on real-life characters whose actions or ideology you find despicable (eg IRA or Taliban), it's not as easy to put yourself in that role as it is if you are playing as some fictional bad guy.
 
Playing as a bad or evil character is fine when it is completely fictional, it then does not matter; however I can see how Kav would have issues with playing a character based on a 'real' terrorist.
Another example might be playing as a member of the "SS" or as Hitler/Himler etc in a WW2 game, would people want to do that? Most WW2 games you are a 'German Soldier' rather than something more sinister making it acceptible to play the bad guy.Although thinking on the Zombies in WaW you play as Richhofen undoubtably a Nazi scientist but this becomes acceptable because of the fictional setting & the time that has passed. Perhaps 'Taliban' is just to prominent in our culture at the moment.

I can see though how this game has almost created the SP experience to sell to Western culture but in MP where you have to have the two sides so they have left themselves no choice but to make one side play as the 'terrorists'.
 
There's bad guys and bad guys though.

Heres some examples, see how you feel about each one.

Play as a Evil Fantasy Overlord with goblin minons - Crush the humans
Play as a Evil Dictator in a made up tropical Island - Take out the resistance.
Play as the Klu Klux Klan in 1920's america - keep the bloodlines Pure and Destroy the racial threat
Play as Hilters right hand man - round up the Jews, Gypsys and Gays.
Play as the Spanish Inqusition - Burn suspected heritic, futher your polical power .
Play as Niko Belic Pretty Theft, steal cars and kill anyone who gets in your way.

Theres always someone who wont like a game subject matter, but there are some that are just plain unexceptable.
 
I guess I thought people don't particulary have to be interested in Medal of Honor to be interested in the story. The mods will know what to do though. :rolleyes:
 
There's bad guys and bad guys though.

Heres some examples, see how you feel about each one.

Play as a Evil Fantasy Overlord with goblin minons - Crush the humans
Play as a Evil Dictator in a made up tropical Island - Take out the resistance.
Play as the Klu Klux Klan in 1920's america - keep the bloodlines Pure and Destroy the racial threat
Play as Hilters right hand man - round up the Jews, Gypsys and Gays.
Play as the Spanish Inqusition - Burn suspected heritic, futher your polical power .
Play as Niko Belic Pretty Theft, steal cars and kill anyone who gets in your way.

Theres always someone who wont like a game subject matter, but there are some that are just plain unexceptable.

I didn't think Niko was "pretty", lol. :p
 
Politicians usually know bugger all about video games, so I tend to dismiss anything any of them say in relation to a game. It's usually ill-informed and just a naked attempt to jump on what is assumed will be a populist bandwagon.

Although, interestingly in the current case, I note that the government as a whole has distanced itself to some extent from what Liam Fox had ranted about MoH....
 
Sure, you can say it's just a game, but it still wouldn't sit right with me. I like to get immersed in my games, and I'd hate to be playing a game where I felt bad for slaughtering the "enemy" when the enemy happened to be innocent people. Also as I said, when the background to a group is founded on an oppressive ideology, this isn't something I as a gamer want to align myself with.

Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much... :D

I can understand where your coming from and I agree to an extent there are alot of situations a developer could create which would make me uncomfortable. Then again part of me wants developers to have the freedom to do it anyway the same way films deal with horrible stuff and show viewers what they don't want to see.

The fact that it would get such a response surely makes you more immersed because its not just easy choices/actions, these actions could provide much more deeper and meaningful stories.

Playing both sides of the war could give you great perspective, play coalition forces dropping AC130 shells spamming buildings and every white dot you see because you can, and then you play the other side being bombed and trying to escape to attack maybe see some innocents being killed and the motivation for a character to be the "bad guy" is created.

Obviously games like this should be 18+ etc and they wont be for everybody.

I just think the weight and meaning it could add to games is worth more than offending/ making some people (who don't HAVE to play the game) uncomfortable.
 
UK Defence Secretary Liam Fox calls for a ban by retailers.

BBC News - Liam Fox defends call for ban of Medal of Honor game

First of all


:laugh: He sounds like a character from a videogame!

Now seriously

The point remains that part of this game allows you to play the part of the Taliban attacking ISAF troops in the area of central Helmand where British troops are operating

and

An Electronic Arts spokesman said the game "does not allow players to kill British soldiers".

"No British troops feature in the game," he said.

and finally some common sense

"There is a ratings system in place which exists to categorise games appropriately. In this case, the game in question is rated 18 so should only be sold to, and played by, adults.

"There is a clear choice for consumers which they can exercise when making decisions about purchasing video games."

I really wish people who have no understanding of this medium would keep their traps shut.
 
I really wish people who have no understanding of this medium would keep their traps shut.
This.

The guy obviously has no clue that it's purely for adversarial deathmatch, rather than an objective based story driven mission to dispatch the infidel with an IED. Someone's told him that you can play as the Taliban, and he's left the rest to his imagination.
 
Whats wrong with wanting to be the bad guys ?
Nothing IMO. As long as one isnt a psychopath, and can distinguish reality from fantasy, then half the point of games is to do things you can in real life.

Is it morally dubious? Then yes, but morals are culturally related (saying eating a dog is fine in some cultures, morally off in others), and surely a "bad guy" is perspective too? In say a vietnam game, are the good guys the VC of the yanks? If you were playing as a VC, and the game has you come across some americans killing civilians, they should there be an ourcry if you can then shoot those american soldiers?

My problem with this current fuss, not like the CoD killing innocents things, is its only the online bit i believe, so really it could be the skinned avatar of anyone killing the skinned avatar of another? It's not personal, its not racist, its not insulting vets of either side. SOCOM had one said as the SEALs and the others were very arab "terrorists", not a word about those games :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have husbands vs ex-wives shooting each other? ;) (hope this isnt too close to the bone PixelPixel - chin up!)
 
It all depends on your definition of good guys and bad guys. I'm sure that the Taliban see themselves as the good guys, and the West as bad. History is written by the winners; if Germany had won WWII, I suspect that Hitler would be seen as the greatest leader and hero of the 20th century.

I don't think that a computer game is really the place where such ideological subtleties are examined in closest detail. It could be interesting for people to see things from the other side's viewpoint; however, an FPS doesn't really get to the nub of the cultural and idealogical differences between the different sides!
 
Interesting that it's just the MP deathmatch teams - if that's the case then it's all a fuss over nothing. That isn't what I had in mind when I wrote the post above - I thought Gavin was talking in general terms rather than specifically about MoH. It's more the creation of a single-player experience based on real-life terrorists I had in mind with my comments.

I fully agree with Guns that, provided games are rated appropiately, their content should not be subject to censure. However, is this the same thing as enjoying playing the game when it comes to the more troubling moral aspects? Must admit, I didn't bat an eyelid at the MW2 airport scene - I've done far worse in video games! However, if, say, I played the role of an IRA member whose mission it is to plant a car bomb in a public place and kill innocent people, I'm not sure I could be so blase about it.

There was a game developed for the PC a few years back, which put you in the book depository from which Lee Harvey Oswald (supposedly) assassinated JFK. The game was a simulation: could you pull off the shot in the way that he did and assassinate Kennedy? It didn't sell very well, possibly because it crossed a line in the gaming community's collective imagination, or possibly because it simply wasn't a very good game. :D
 
Or the fact that you could not actually take the shot because another building was in the way.

Go back to sleep america...all is safe :laugh:
 
Or the fact that you could not actually take the shot because another building was in the way.

Go back to sleep america...all is safe :laugh:

'I trust the puppet on the left hand...'

'I trust the puppet on the right...'

'Waaaait a minute, there's one man controlling both puppets... Go back to bed America' :D
 
'I trust the puppet on the left hand...'

'I trust the puppet on the right...'

'Waaaait a minute, there's one man controlling both puppets... Go back to bed America' :D

" Here's 24 Hours of American Gladiators...Go back to bed America "
 
So people are happy being English soldiers killing Germans but when its the other way its different ? How is that ?

To me video games are years behind the likes of what is covered in every day news or what is published in the latest blockbuster novel or even the latest movie. The real shock years are still to come. I think when you give the option to do something different then it changes how people view it.

I get sick of the good guys saving the day aka American themed games. I also like a good old twist in some games. ;) When the bad guy really was the good guy.
 
It might be different if your son had died and someone else was making a game of it. WWII tends to be different as it was years ago and people had got over it. There's also no real reason why it should be America v Taliban. It could be set in space and be red team v blue team.
 

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