When Worlds collide: The dedicated living room cinema (Updated May 2020)

@KelvinS1965 Out of interest, how tall is that main rack?
 
Not sure off hand, but I can probably find the order for it to give the specs, or just measure it when I get home. It came with wheels, but that made it too tall so they are in use in the garden now, to make a rolling planter for my wife's vegetable garden. :)
 
Not sure off hand, but I can probably find the order for it to give the specs, or just measure it when I get home. It came with wheels, but that made it too tall so they are in use in the garden now, to make a rolling planter for my wife's vegetable garden. :)
If it's the same as mine, 850mm :)
 
I just checked and mine is 880mm stood on the 'feet' rather than the casters. Probably just down to slightly different thickness top/base I guess. Mine came from Thomann, I think there is a link way back on this thread, but I'm 99% certain this is the one I ordered:

Millenium SR-2018

Free shipping on that too as it's over £99.
 
@Russ 66 kind of pricked my conscience earlier about sliding into the upgrade loop: I think maybe I should just stick to finding a power amp for the extra 4 channels above my P7 for now, maybe even something used.

I'm not sure how much I could hear a difference between my P7 and something 'better' since it's already working well within it's limits at my typical listening levels. Though it is tempting to try one of the Nord power amps with their 14 day return option, just to see if I can hear any difference.

Out of interest I created a list of my speakers/distance from MLP and used an online SPL calculator to see how many watts I actually need to hit reference level. Only my LCR at 4.5 metres away need close to the full power of my P7 (170watts for 105dB), all the others being 2 metres or less needed much less power.

Probably more relevant is that non of the channels need more than about 20 watts to hit my typical -10dB below reference level listening. So even the old NAD310 with it's 40 watts per channel (dynamic) output exceeds what I need for the height speakers it is currently driving. The SPL calculator gave a figure of 14 watts for the MP150 at 8.5 feet for 95dB.

I guess it's easy to get drawn into the upgrade path: I saw a used Arcam P429 recently that in hindsight would have been fine for powering the 4 speakers nearest me (the ones within social distancing guidelines ;) ).
 
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A bit of REW graphs. I wondered how effective it would be to use REW EQ to pre-equalise the subs separately verses just EQing them together. Both subs are the same distance from the MLP, front room corners (facing outwards towards the side walls).

It's interesting to compare the traces for left and right separately as they aren't the same, but they do compliment the various peaks and dips. This is without any EQ applied:
Left and right subs.jpg


Then adding the combined response shown in red below. This is what I then used the REW EQ to flatten.
L R Both no EQ.jpg


I created MiniDSP filters for all three traces above, then loaded them into the MiniDSP.

I then measured the results of both subs EQ'd separately (two filters from the green and blue above respectively loaded to the left and right sub channels in the MiniDSP). A second config using a single filter generated from the red trace and applied to both sub channels in the MiniDSP.
Separate vs single EQ.jpg


I think the red trace is a slightly better place to start from when I next run Dirac. There isn't much of a house curve, but this is intentional as I can add that by using Target curves in Dirac. Also I plan to use BEQ and have been advised not to have a strong house curve when using BEQ as it becomes too much otherwise (too much bass?!!! ;) ).
 
Also I plan to use BEQ and have been advised not to have a strong house curve when using BEQ as it becomes too much otherwise (too much bass?!!! ;) ).

It's true. Especially for films with a heavy music score that have no good ULF content. The film 'Green book' for example. Right at the start of that film there's a Jazz 'band' club scene. The bass notes from the band where OTT 'on my system'. I ended up removing the BEQ filter. Saying this, this is the only one I've found thus far, and I've been using BEQ since 2018. If I recall I just about got away with the BEQ filter for 'a star is born'. I haven't watched 'Bohemian Rhapsody' or 'Rocketman' but I guess these could be similar.
 
I watched Terminator Dark Fate last night. There is a BEQ filter for this, but frankly it had plenty of bass and tactile feel anyway. At least it confirmed I’ve got the BK set up properly too as it really matched the subs well and just felt like they were doing all the shaking, not a separate device.

I also realised that my trace above with the subs separate, then together shows about a 6db increase. This is more typical for stacked subs, but I guess being equidistant and a symmetrical room helps there.
 
I ran Dirac V3 last night; went much better than the last time too. I ran it on top of the previous sub trace from a few posts back to give Dirac a bit less to do. Still have my usual sub delay tweaks to run through and I can reload my measurements and try different target curves now without having to remeasure again.

Last night I loaded Harman 4dB curve, but it seemed a little light this time, so I tried the 6dB curve tonight and it's gone a little the other way now. Probably nothing that a bit of REW won't sort out though. Of course now the new surround backs are EQ'd with Dirac too, though I was already getting a great 'bubble' of sound with just a manual set up, but the Atmos clips are sounding really good now.

I just need to have another go at my living room door: That 'Powerfull Bass' part in 'Amaze' sets the door off rattling like some demon is trying to force their way into the room. :eek:
 
I just need to have another go at my living room door: That 'Powerfull Bass' part in 'Amaze' sets the door off rattling like some demon is trying to force their way into the room. :eek:

Some weather stripping should sort that out assuming it's rattling in the frame and not flat out warping :D
 
I already refitted the door jams last time we decorated. It’s a heavy door too, so I think it might just be unlucky resonance. Mostly only does it on that clip though, but it’s a good test to see if I manage to fix it. :)
 
@richardsim7 I couldn't find any of my weather strip roll, but I did try a couple of small silicon 'dots' between the door and the jam as a test. I also took the handle and latch apart, made some adjustments and just generally tightened everything up. Seems a lot better from a test thumping it with my hand (the family are watching something else on TV), so I'll test it with 'Amaze' tomorrow.

I also need to put some kind of 'wedge' behind the radiator as it vibrates slightly on the bracket despite being a large double rad. I'll see what I've got in the garage for that tomorrow: No good building low distortion subs and then having the room add noise (even if it's mostly only a certain clip that does it). :)
 
I saved money on Blu-Tack: Just tested 'Amaze' after I did some REW tweaking and the door is silent. Sounds much better now as it made it sound a bit distorted.

I think I'm there with the Dirac and REW tweaking, so I'm going to read up more on BEQ. I might have too much of a house curve, but it works very well for non-BEQ so far without being too much (I'm using the 6dB Harman curve). The good thing is that music sounds good too, not just the 'bang and crash' test clips.

At least these curves are in the AVR, not my MiniDSP (which only has a few pre-Dirac sub corrections in it). That means I can just load the 4dB project back into the Arcam and put the manual tweaks back in that I've written down from my last REW session.

Film night tonight, not sure what it'll be yet, but hopefully something 4K as I also updated my Lumagen during the week to the newest version. :)
 
This is the REW measurement of my centre plus subs at the MLP. Take into account that Dirac has measured at 9 points and I'm now measuring at a single point (as close to the first Dirac measurement point as I can physically manage). Plus if you move a small amount from this spot then the response changes a little of course; in particular that sharp dip at 145Hz which is in-audible as it goes once I move my head/mic a few mms.

C + Sub as left.jpg


This is based on my previous pre-Dirac REW EQ'd sub trace from a few posts back. I've applied a +6dB Harman curve in Dirac Live and I fine tuned the sub delay. I took 2mS OFF in my MiniDSP, which I'd set to +20mS before calibration with Dirac to give me some room each side as the Arcam/Dirac sets the subs to 0.0mS delay.

Currently using 120Hz crossover after trying 150Hz and various steps down to 80Hz. This seemed to give the best overall response, though my MPS300 LCR speakers can easily handle lower crossovers, this gives the S150T side surrounds and IW85 surround backs an easier time of it (Arcam restricted to one crossover for the base layer and another for the height layer).

I've set the 4 x MP150 height speakers to the same 120Hz as well: I have a theory that phase changes due to different crossovers may cause cancellations (like I saw with my rear subs when I rolled them off below 30Hz and lost SPL from the fronts due to cancellations). I feel that this may help give a better blend if sounds pan from one of the base layer speakers to the heights, plus the MP150 can easily handle a 120Hz crossover anyway.

I think that's it for now, apart from a little manual greyscale adjustment in my Lumagen for the lower end of the greyscale, due to the new 12 bit 1D LUT update: Just gives finer steps for adjustment in this critical range.

I'll maybe get a 4 channel power amp for the Atmos speakers and possibly a cost-neutral change of sub amp depending on whether a deal can be done... there might be a pair of iNuke 6000DSP in the classifieds soon in that case. ;)
 
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Well I've got BEQ designer loaded on an old laptop and merged the current list of films/TV series with my MiniDSP 'base' eq setting.

BEQ designer.jpg



Sadly, while I was doing that the seller of a LabGruppen FP14000 clone responded on his thread, but someone else beat me to it. Probably for the best as I don't think my Q15s would take anymore power than an iNuke 6000DSP each, but I liked the idea of dropping to a single amp.
 
Yesterday should have been my son‘s Graduation day, which was obviously cancelled due to the current situation. Instead we enjoyed a nice takeaway meal and he chose the film to watch So we could all sit and enjoy together.

Not my usual genre, but he likes Anime so we watched a Netflix film called ‘My Name’ and it was really well done and enjoyable. Only 1080p and 5.1 sound (Upmixed to Dolby Surround of course), but looked and sounded great after my recent tweaks. The bass is now just spot on; not overblown, but just clear and clean sounding. Well worth sorting out that door too I think.

I followed with a couple of episodes of Altered Carbon series 2. It’s in 4K/HDR and generally quite dark, but it looked superb with the recent Lumagen DTM updates and recent calibration. I could have stayed up all night watching other things, but will have to save it for another night.

I think most of the improvements this year have been down to set up, room treatment and software updates like Dirac, Chormapure and from Lumagen. Granted the cost of the IW85 and BK wasn’t trivial, but these have just added to the overall effect.

Apart from keeping my eyes open for a 4 channel power amp ( let me know via this thread if any of you spot something :) ), then I am going to try to hold off from further spending now. @Russ 66 can pull me up again, if not ;)

Maybe I should have titled this post ‘Epilogue’ but of course, I’m sure there will be more to post later this year. Even if it’s only an improved version of my Devore treatments. :)
 
Just to update on the BEQ addition: Looks like I've been lucky as the content I've watched so far has sounded great and not over the top at all. I'd been advised not to run too hot a house curve with BEQ, but mine isn't that extreme. Watched 'The Snowman' and some of series 2 of 'Altered Carbon' and the bass just sounded great, without drawing un-necessary attention to itself. I'll just have to make sure I plan ahead loading the MiniDSP slots in advance of the films we want to watch.

I can also confess that I have bought an Apple 4K TV box, arriving today. :blush: Not strictly an 'upgrade' though, more a convenience as we watch a lot of TV out in the conservatory this time of year and the Netflix app is a bit shaky on the TV. I've re-purposed a CAT7 cable I ran previously for HDMI balun use, so I can connect it directly rather than via wifi as that can be a bit weak out there. In the winter months I can move the ATV to my main rack as it'll give me Atmos sound on some content. :)
 
Ssssh! These aren't upgrades, but just some final tweaks. ;)

Added the following recently, so these are just to tidy it all up and make access easier:

1. Apple 4K TV box to give Atmos sound on available platforms.
2. BEQ for adding better bass to filtered movies.
3. Some cooling for my AVR/Lumagen.
4. A bit of OCD 19" rack work. ;)

I can move the ATV from the conservatory to the main system, but it has to share the same input on my Lumagen, so I added a 4K/HDR compatible automatic switch. Did some minor tweaks to the Lumagen settings, all working fine and getting Altered Carbon in Atmos, converted to SDR2020 by the Lumagen and have a BEQ file loaded in slot 4 of the MiniDSP. :)

The switch from Amazon, which was £30 and I have tested with 4K/60Hz and is working perfectly (with some extra Monoprice HDMI cables):

Amazon product ASIN B078H3BBKX
You can see it on the top of the rack to the right of the Humax PVR, maybe spot the white HDMI cable/LAN cable positioned ready for occasions when I move the ATV to the top of the Humax for big screen viewing.

A large selection of remotes, but I only need the Harmony (and ATV remote for now, until I sort out a Harmony 'activity' for it:
Top of the rack.jpg



I also added an AC Infinity S6 cooler above my Arcam AVR390 to help keep it cool and also to redirect any heat away from the Lumagen above. Fan speed automatically controlled depending on the heat, upto full speed for 88 degrees F or above.

Amazon product ASIN B01LW6CYEC

As seen just behind the mesh front panel:
AVR with S6.jpg


For loading my BEQ files I added a USB extension cable to my MiniDSP which is placed under the main rack ready to pull out to load this week's film files. Just received 1917 from Cinemaparadiso today, so that BEQ file will be getting loaded into a slot ready:

Bottom of the rack.jpg


As if lining up all the screw heads wasn't OCD enough, :blush: I've now changed the 2 x 1U mesh panels for a single 2U mesh panel just above the Arcam P7 power amp. For a rack that is hidden away, it's looking pretty neat. :)

New 2U.jpg


Just keeping my eyes on the classifieds/eBay for a power amp to replace the NAD, or might see if Nord have a summer sale at some point.

Shame it's too nice to sit indoors this evening and watch a film, but it's there ready and waiting when the inevitable rain comes. :)
 
Just keeping my eyes on the classifieds/eBay for a power amp to replace the NAD, or might see if Nord have a summer sale at some point.

You looking out for anything in particular Kelvin? I’ll have my p429 to shift on down the line if you are looking to keep things within the Arcam family, I say down the line as it won’t power on properly atm so is off to Arcam for them to take a look at although apparently they have a big back log due to Covid so may be some time away!
 
Dont suppose you fancy another P7 ? ... I might be interested in that p429 from @beechy06 which would give me enough channels (I think) with the AVR550 and save a few inches in height with the stack in the cupboard under the stairs ... bear it in mind
 
Thanks @beechy06 I have been looking at P429 as an option, so would be interested once you get it back from Arcam. I saw one sell recently on the forums in response to a wanted advert, so that got me thinking. With all 4 channels driven it's 125 watts into 4ohms, so that should be ample for my rear Atmos MP150 and IW85 rear surrounds.

@jont another P7 isn't really so useful to me because I only need another 4 channels.

However, if Nord have their summer sale soon then I might just take a chance and order one of theirs, probably an NC122 (125 watt) 4 channel...I just hope it doesn't lead to a slippery slope of then wanting the matching 7 channel one, knowing what my OCD for a neat/matching, but mostly unseen rack is. :blush:
 
Well, I haven't bought anything new, just been catching up on films that most people have probably long since seen. Really enjoyed 1917 and Once upon a time in Hollywood, picture and sound was fantastic on both, which is what it's all about I guess. BEQ on both too.

I just realised I started this thread 4 years ago. :eek: A few inevitable compromises along the way, but I think that's to be expected especially with a non dedicated room, though I guess even dedicated rooms have their own issues too.

Still have a couple of mini projects to just improve a few bits I'm not 100% happy with: I want to rework the Atmos speaker grilles and have been thinking about the location of the rear height speakers since I added the surround backs. Originally the sofa was supposed to be a bit further forward than it has ended up, so the distance the heights are from the MLP is a little uneven, so I might move the rear heights back to the rear corners, so they will be equidistant and closer to the recommended Dolby 7.1.4 layout as below:

7 1 4 layout.jpg


This photo from earlier in the thread gives a view of where the heights are now. It's not a huge job to move the speakers and the cables will reach. I may just make the speaker grille bigger to cover the existing area and right back to the corner, so I'd kill two birds with neater grilles and moving the speakers.

Left side.JPG


Of course this would mean another Dirac calibration, so that's probably reason enough to leave it a while as a little winter weekend project. In the meantime the cooler weather means I'm watching more films than I usually would at this time of year. :)
 
I was watching a YouTube video regarding speaker placements posted on here the other day. Very detailed and informative. He talked about pointing Atmos speakers at the MLP and not firing straight down. Presume you’ve not found this an issue?
Those IW150 have a big dispersion pattern. It I’m not sure how the IW85 I’m planning on using are.
 
That's also part of the reasoning behind the grille redesign; a thinner frame and also to allow me to angle the speaker towards the MLP. Mine are MP150 rather than the actual IW version; I just mounted them so that the baffle rests on a padded frame so they are pretty much firing straight down.

You can see in this early photo. If you zoom in you can also see which way round I mounted them. You can also see that the rear heights could go back about 2x their length:
Surround and Atmos speaker view.jpg


Closer view here:
Week 2 Atmos speaker.jpg


I'm also wondering if I should turn the speaker 90 degrees while I'm at it? It would make angling them towards the MLP easier as that would be the narrower side. The MP150 are supposed to be wide horizontal dispersion, but limited vertical dispersion.
 

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