XTZ 12.17, bk P12-300SB-PR or XXLS400-DF

tvguy

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Hi Folks after some help please.


I’m really stuck and cannot decide which new sub to go for. I currently have the BK 200 DF and it is a lovely piece of kit. However, I now have the twitch and need something with a lot more grunt to assist my monitor audio bronze 5's. I would love but cannot go for the monolith (+) as I want to keep my wife and tbh it would not really fit in anywhere due to its size.


I like to really feel the bass in my chest so was pretty much sold on the PR offering from BK as that allegedly has nearly the same grunt as the monolith but having read the review on here about the XLT was wondering if it really is worth the extra cash?


My Room size is currently about 12 foot by 26 foot, as a through lounge, but I want to build a false wall so it becomes a self contained cinema room at about 12 foot by 12 foot.


Any help and or advice would be greatly appreciated.


TYIA.
 
I really like the XTZ 12.17 and get plenty of Chest Thump, even running sealed.

I find front firing seems to give the best punch.

Loads of tuning options with twin Reflex Ports, which are different lengths or can be bunged and run sealed. Also has 3 EQ settings on the rear panel.

I run a dual setup, but even one is enough for your 12 x 12 Cinema Room

More powerful than the other 2 options too.:cool:
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply mikevo. Having read a few reviews it definitely seems to be very versatile .

Have you compared it with the bk sub {s}? A couple hundred pound more so that's why I wanted to be sure and that im already coming from a bk 200.
 
XTZ 12.17 : 39,5 x 51 x 40 cm (W x H x D)
BK Mono+ FF : 42 x 54 x 56 cm (W x H x D)
BK P12 PR : 40 x 46 x 40 cm (W x H x D)

Depth wise M+ is bit larger, other than that quite same.

XTZ is going to kick you hardest and purely for movie performance in mind it should be easily worth it! It can outperform M+ clearly in the "chest kick" area and you can use it without plugs on EQ2 "With no plugs in the ports the subwoofer will provide a “quick” and “punchy” bass character. It will produce increased output higher up in the frequency range."

Front firing driver plus two ports most likely aimed toward listener is going to give you some extra tactile sensation (when pushed), they will move lot of air surely.

Ask HifiPilot if they give you 12.17 Edge* for preorder price (same as for 12.17), i know EU site does this. Contact Us - Hifipilot UK

*Edge has 700w (rms) ICEPower amp with 5year warranty!
 
Thanks gasp3621 great bit of advice I have just emailed them. I'll let you know their response .
 
I have owned 3 of the BK XLS-200 and heard a XLS-400df.
The XTZ 12.17 will blow away the XLS-200 and in my opinion is faster and more dynamic than the XLS-400. This is probably due to the Class D amp, which has a vice like grip on the Drive Unit.

Many Mosfet Amp designs (not sure if BK are based on this) date back to the Hitachi Circuit from 1980 and is quite good, but not as good a Class D for Bass Driver Control IMO.

I have also owned several Passive Radiator equipped speakers over the years and find they get a bit unruly when pushed hard and also roll off steeply below the PR tuning frequency.

I went from Dual Paradigm Sub 1's to Dual XTZ 12.17 and I have no complaints.

I can still make the Doors rattle in the Hallway, no problem and have never heard any sign of distortion.
 
Hi @tvguy, my mistake regarding the BK Amplification, the XLS-200 and 400 use Bipolar transistors, its the Monolith that uses Mosfets.
Even so, I still find the newer generation of Class D Amps seem to have better Bass control.:smashin:
 
I also have the bronze 5's and recently "downgraded" from a bk monolith to a bk p12 300sb and was very pleasantly surprised how well it sounded with movies. Not as deep as the monolith(obviously) but still powerful and punchy and able to put a smile on my face, placement is a non issue and the auto on/off is a real bonus.
Music with the p12 300 is excellent. Nothing else to say, I was blown away with the bass and mib bass from the sub.
Do I miss my monolith ?, A little, but the pb 300 is a better all round sub in my room and system and its was simply plug and play.
 
That sounds like overkill to me in a 12 x 12 foot room. I'd suggest a second bk xls200 and some room correction or an anti mode.
 
Oh no guys just when I was sold on the XTZ :rotfl:I really never thought I would move away from BK subs. I like that they are a small uk firm and they are not that far from where I live. However, I really am a bass head and like to feel the action as well as hear it. I was leaning towards the 300 PR until I read the reviews on the XTZ on here.

The missus will kill me with anything to big so need to buy it an move it in-situ before she realises what just happened hence why I cannot do a mono. The XTZ is really touch n go on size and the Downfiring BK is easier to hide, hence why I looked at the 400. I can only fit the sub between the sofa and the rear left hand speaker another bronze 5 if that matters I don't know?
 
Seeing as you already have 1 x BK XLS200, and you are near Southend, why not see if they will loan you (or sell you one on a sale or return) a second one and see if you can make two of those work in your room?

You really shoiuld get plenty of bass with two of those in a 12 x 12 foot room. Do you have any room correction available to you on your amp? And, do you have any way of measuring the bass response in your room? You can improve bass a lot by getting the positioning right.
 
Some might argue is there such thing as overkill when it comes to subwoofers. :laugh: Surely at some point, but seeing some subwoofers in members small rooms, i would say the XTZ 12.17 isn`t nowhere near largest. :) There is so many tastes and for guy Y something like XLS200 might be enough, but for guy X who craves that extra pounding/room rattling bass with blockbuster movies the XLS200 won`t do much. There is limits what 10" small sealed box can do surely.

And OP said; "need something with a lot more grunt" - "I like to really feel the bass in my chest".

XTZ 17 serie seems to be very strong especially with the chest hitting bass (~50-125hz), stronger than some competitors from SVS and 1x12 Cinema (which has extra juice with low/ulf bass). And the tuning tweaks seems to really make difference how the subwoofer performs.

@tvguy
I can only fit the sub between the sofa and the rear left hand speaker another bronze 5 if that matters I don't know?

Does this placement apply to all these three models? Have you tried the XLS200 in different place let`s say front corner example or maybe done subwoofer crawl? Just to understand is that placement ideal in first place.
 
@Gasp3621 I am pretty sure it is very far from being ideal. I have not tried the crawl but the only other place I could put it would be best to the rhf speaker but that would mean it being on show with the wires going across the fireplace..

So whilst probably not subwoofer friendly it is definitely wife friendly:D

With regards to two 200s Rambles I had thought of that but wasn't convinced it would give me any more low down bass just a more even spread? Obviously no idea if right and maybe a test would be a good idea if I would only chose either two 200s or a bigger single bk. I'd hate to not buy from them if I wasn't happy.
 
I tried 2 XLS-200 and they did not dig as deep or have the output of a single XTZ 12.17.

The XLS-200 was great at augmenting the Bass of my stereo AVI 9RS setup (crossed over at about 50hz) and are very musical, but were not able to fulfil my requirements in my AV System (90 Hz Crossover). The demands are quite different as the LFE channel runs 10db higher than the main channels.
In a movie theater on the island of Utopia, with ideal hardware, any single screen channel should be capable of a clean 105 dB peak with it’s own respectable bass. The LFE channel should be capable of a 115 dB peak. Drive all channels to the max and the system should be able to slam you with approximately 120 dB of bass information. Thank you Dolby.

Using an Anti Mode will also not necessarily bring benefits as any compensation for room nulls or to extend the lower frequencies will require extra excursion and cause the subs to work harder, I tried this with a Monitor Audio RSW12 and it actually caused the Sub to bottom out.

If you want Grunt, get a Grunty Sub.
 
Ideally, you need to measure your room to find out what bass response you are getting in the main listening position, other wise it is all purely guess work.

You might buy a sub because you think you want a lower frequency response, when all along the problem is that you have a big null at 60hz that could be fixed by adjusting the placement.
 
Thanks rambles I'll have a look into testing the room but I really am limited to the position or I'll be looking for a new wife rather than a new sub. Not too sure what would be cheaper but I'm guessing the sub:p

Lol @MIKEVO yeah I reckon I need a grunty sub .Still not heard back from the site I emailed yesterday. Don't suppose anyone knows anywhere else I might get a deal on a grade b offering like bk do? Or effect a second hand one?

Cheers again folks I really do appreciate the info:clap:
 
@Gasp3621 I am pretty sure it is very far from being ideal. I have not tried the crawl but the only other place I could put it would be best to the rhf speaker but that would mean it being on show with the wires going across the fireplace..

Jeez man, stop being such an amateur husband. Put it at the front where it probably should be, stick a plant on top to make it wife friendly and use a bit of imagination to hide the cable.
 
Simples...

f53vas.png
 
Thanks rambles I'll have a look into testing the room but I really am limited to the position or I'll be looking for a new wife rather than a new sub. Not too sure what would be cheaper but I'm guessing the sub:p

Lol @MIKEVO yeah I reckon I need a grunty sub .Still not heard back from the site I emailed yesterday. Don't suppose anyone knows anywhere else I might get a deal on a grade b offering like bk do? Or effect a second hand one?

Cheers again folks I really do appreciate the info:clap:
Just out of curiosity, I just played loads of Cd's and Music Blu Rays in my lounge which is 12 x 18ft and turned one of my XTZ 12.17's off and it was easy to replicate a thundering nightclub, by turing the wick up.:cool:

With the multiple tuning options available on the 12.17 you can play around to your hearts content and find the sound that suits you, playing with phase can help too. I often get friends round to adjust Subs on the fly and vice versa. Although my wife is very forgiving and helps too.
 
Oh man it's such a difficult decision. I just heard back from the link you sent yesterday and they're not matching the price on the edge . They want £750 for it but a grade b bk from ebay is 380.nearly half price are the xtz sealy twice as good

I did laugh at the photo of the flowers I should have tried that with the q acoustics I had before having to trade them in for smaller bronze 5s:facepalm:
 
Oh man it's such a difficult decision. I just heard back from the link you sent yesterday and they're not matching the price on the edge . They want £750 for it

Then the normal 12.17 at 580£ delivered sounds better deal. The amp warranty is same as with BK subs, 2years.

The smaller BK subs are certainly fine for the low money no one doubts that, but you are building cinema room. I think most of people would step up then. If you go with BK, P12-300SB-PR at 450£ + delivery should be step up from XXLS400 for HT use. How close it can get to 12.17 is unknown. You would save around 100£, which isn`t much. Member Suche ordered XXLS400-PR made for him only, but still missing that little bit from Mono+, returned it and got M+. I think the story is very similar always, one thinks to save little bit and getting something smaller/cheaper, but after for awhile he get`s sleepless nights and the buyers remorse starts to kick in with those "what if.." thoughts and then ends up upgrading and losing money. So think really hard before pulling the plug!

You still haven`t answered which receiver you got? And do you have MA Bronze 5 front mains + surrounds + Bronze centre?
 
I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that bigger is not necessarily better in every instance!

There is a nice article here about matching subwoofers to your room, existing speakers, and how you want to use it:

Home theater subwoofers buying guide

By all means buy big and bold and grunty, but in a small or even medium sized room, there is every chance that you may only use a small portion of the big sub's capabilities so be paying for size and volume that you will never tap into.

As I say, there are other ways to improve the bass response in your room, such as adding in some EQ / room correction, going dual, or investing in a decent microphone / SPL meter and ensuring that you have the placement and 'tuning' as good as you can.

As well as buyers remorse for buying too small, there may also be buyers remorse for buying too big and tyng all your budget up in one device that is more than you can use in your room.
 
Good points rambles I will read that link and look into room eqs? Cheers.

You're quite right gasp3621 about buyers remorse I've read that a few times on here which was why I wanted your opinions.

Sorry I missed the question but yes I have a denon 2200 and bronze 5s front and back and a bronze centre .I think the q acoustics 3050 were better but that the bronze centre is better.

Where can I get it fit 580
 
I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that bigger is not necessarily better in every instance!

Agreed, not always and XTZ 12.17 isn`t actually much larger than BK P12-PR or XXLS400 DF!! 5cm taller and that`s it, width/depth is same. :) The trick here is newer design with higher quality components. BK uses "older tech". XTZ like the rest of brands these days relies on class-D amps, DSP controlled to get the subwoofer behave like they want.

And of course with vented design you have so much more output (10 - 14db compared to XLS200 at 20-100hz) and better extension with lower distortion. But more importantly it will sound quite different and if you watch lot of blockbuster movies vented sub can be lot more fun than smaller (cheap) sealed sub. There isn`t any other subs for 580£ with those tuning options, great measured performance for size/price, superb owners and professional reviews. 10.17 would be 100£ cheaper, but would it come biting back later on..?

Maybe you have wrong picture of XTZ 12.17, it´s rather compact sized compared to some other beasts.

As I say, there are other ways to improve the bass response in your room, such as adding in some EQ / room correction, going dual, or investing in a decent microphone / SPL meter and ensuring that you have the placement and 'tuning' as good as you can.

XLS200 isn´t going to give OP what he is looking for. Sure you can corner load it and run hotter, but there is certain limits even in small room it ain´t going to do things what is needed.

OP has Denon X2200 which has Audussey MultEQ XT which does little bit of subwoofer eq, i think most of people would prefer XT32/Antimode. Dual route is not possible with the limits set by her wife, throwing another XLS200 where it looks good/fits would be waste of money. He could measure with REW to see what is happening in room and which would be ideal placement for one sub, but sadly it seems he is limited to one area (back of the room, possibly nearfield which has some advantages).

Luckily with XTZ one can run it sealed, ported in couple ways either to maximize the performance of low bass rumbles or higher up more tighter punchier bass. There is also EQ option for muddy bass if the room is boosting the low bass too much. So chances are little bit better to get it sound good as long as the placement isn´t some null area, which i doubt.

As well as buyers remorse for buying too small, there may also be buyers remorse for buying too big and tyng all your budget up in one device that is more than you can use in your room.

I think you didn´t notice the part that he is building cinema room and the quotes needing more chest punch, being bass head etc. that for me means he listens very loud and mostly certain type of movies which asks lot from subwoofer. Some want that room pressurise feeling and bass that hits you hard which can be felt. Good chances to get a taste of that in a small room. One member just bought Arendal Sub3(2x13,8" vented 1kw washing machine size) to similar size room and Adam has dual Sub2 (4x13,8" - 2kw rms) coming for he`s ~10sqm HT room. Some people go with rule books and some people just enjoy life with lot´s off tactile bass with a shitty grin on their faces, something that they would never be able to experience at large cinema. Papalocks says there is no limits to madness, Rambles what would you say about little upgrade.. :D

 
Good points rambles I will read that link and look into room eqs? Cheers.

You're quite right gasp3621 about buyers remorse I've read that a few times on here which was why I wanted your opinions.

Sorry I missed the question but yes I have a denon 2200 and bronze 5s front and back and a bronze centre .I think the q acoustics 3050 were better but that the bronze centre is better.

Where can I get it fit 580

Yep, B5s are rather small compared to 3050s (cabinet & drivers) but if you give some space for them and cross around 80hz, they will do fine job.

You can find XTZ subwoofers here, 3colours; Store - Hifipilot UK

30day buy&try (free delivery, but return might cost).

Also is the 12x12 room size fixed and would there be compromises with speaker placement then if making the room small?
 

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